Hi Folks,
Ive posted a few messages over the last year about my elusive oil leak (more specifically oil burning issue).
Finally got round to removing the downpipes to see if there were any clues inside the 4 exhaust portals.
The only takeaway I got was the two inner exhaust portals had considerably more carbon buildup than the two outer ones. I wasent sure whether this was because the inner cylinders get a bit hotter or whether this was a clue worth investigating.
I took a flat screwdriver and gently scratched the area where the downpipes attach and a decent amount of carbon could be scratched away (the two outer portals were coated black, but without a buildup).
See pictures below, you can see a decent buildup of carbon piled up after gently scraping the area. Lots more could be removed if I had wanted.
Also see picture of one of the outer cylinder portals as an example (cant remember which side), where the metal is "coated" but theres no thickness to the carbon. Both outer portals are like this.
I also noticed the colour of the valve stems were different one each of the valve pairs for the inner cylinders. Please see my next post for picture of this.
Any thoughts?
Hi Folks,
As I mentioned from my previous post, I also noticed the valve stems were a different colour for two of the inner valves.
Both pairs of outer valves were kinda white/reddish, but one each of the two inner valves were more dirty looking.
See pictures below. It was really difficult to take decent pics, but I think this does a good job of representing what I saw.
The first picture shows what the two outer valve stem pairs looked like (i.e. reddish/whitish not sooty).
The second picture shows what one of each pair of the inner valve stem pairs looked like (i.e. one white like the others, but the other distinctly more sooty).
Is this a clue or am I over analysing this?
My final pictures is the paper test.
I started the bike (with the downpipes off) and put a couple of pieces of A4 paper in front of the portals.
The first sheet of paper captured some definite spots of Oil (Note I deliberately smudged the spots so you can see the Oil).
the second sheet of paper was when I revved the bike. There were also spots, but not black oil. It looked more like diluted oil mixed with petrol but am open to other thoughts.
Its worth noting a serious amount of heat and fire came out of the portals, and lots of blue fire which was very pretty to look at but I dont know if thats normal.
Any ideas or feedback welcome :)
Probably leaky valve stem seals. What does compression and leak down test show?
Cheers for the reply.
I had a compression test done earlier this year. Apparently each cylinder was 130psi.
I suspect the mechanic did not perform the test properly because 130psi is on the low side, but it was interesting that all 4 cylinders were very consistent with each other, which I inferred as meaning the piston rings are probably ok.
I have not had a leakdown test done yet, but I will probably need to do this if I cannot identify the problem myself (which I admit is optimistic lol).
I was thinking it might be the valve stem seals, but am open to other ideas.
Do you think the thick carbon buildup + dirty valve stems on the two inner cylinders is something worth investigating further?
You think you are burning oil. More carbon on the inner cylinders. On these there is one stem each with carbon build up while the other seems to be fine. Leads me to believe that the darker valve stems have leaky seals.
Oil spitting out the exhaust. All of them or only the inner cylinders?
130 PSI is on the low side. Ok, the compression test might not have been done correctly or the compression gauge is not calibrated.
Proper oil changes throughout life? Mileage? Usage of engine/bike?
Does the oil you use have a high NOACK? If the is high you will see a drop in oil level without a oil burning issue.
Checked for a vacuum leak? If you have one on 1 or 2 cylinders the other cylinders will run rich which causes carbon build up.
Heat and fire is normal!
Hi Andre,
Regarding the stems, yes that's my interpretation.
Hard to tell where the oil is spitting from but it tends to cluster around the middle of the paper so that points to the middle cylinders. I may have another go to confirm.
I only bought the bike 2nd hand 18 months ago so no way of knowing how well it had been maintained.
It's got 27,000 miles and I use Motel 5100. I previously bought Halfords "own brand" oil and I burned a litre in a few months of use. The 5100 gives me around 600 miles per half litre top up.
No idea how to check for a vacuum leak lol.
Motul doesn't mention the NOACK for this oil. At worse they use the upper limit for this specification. That wouldn't explain 1/2 liter over 600 miles though.
Skipped oil changes are the most likely cause.
Give that paper test another go. I would do it without the fire and heat though. Have a fully charged battery, disconnect the fuel pump (leave the spark plugs in) and hit that starter button. Oil pressure will build up and you "should" see the result on the paper and/or feel/see oil on the stem.
Not much can be done wrong when doing a compression test. One of the things is not to warm up the engine. On a cold engine I'd guess 130 PSI on each cylinder is good enough. You may want to ask the mechanic if he did the test on a cold or warm engine. If he has done it on a warm engine then ask him if the compression gauge is accurate (calibrated).
On an engine with valve stem seal leaks I would want accurate compression readings. A 27000 mile engine should not have leaky seals and low compression. I would want to know as much about the engine condition as I can before throwing lots of money at it. Not doing the work yourself can add up quickly, especially if you don't do the work yourself. IMO if you do it yourself, changing the seals is not a difficult thing. Can check the stem guides, cam journals, valve clearance at the same time. I don't know (and don't want to know - heart attack) how much it would cost to have this done. Here they charge 110-140 € / hour.
I am a bit paranoid regarding undetected vacuum leaks (guess why). It is an easy test. Usually carb cleaner is used for that. I have used that as well as cigarette lighter gas. You spray it on the suspected areas and if there is a leak you will notice a rise in RPM. Mine was at one of the rubber intake pipes (specifically the o-ring embedded in the pipe) that are connected directly to the head. Other possible places are the rubber tubes connected to the throttle body. Unlikely that you have a vacuum leak but it is good to check for it every once in a while.
I had very sooty exhaust ports in my K2, and I think it came from injection control from stone age.
Now with turbo, extra ECU and water methanol injection the situation is much better. The engine is still "stock", 143 000 km riden.
Exhaust ports are now cleaner (sorry about bad quality of phone pic) and you can see same "shiny" result
on piston tops.
Quote from: Andre on Wednesday, 25 December 2019, 09:14 AM
IMO if you do it yourself, changing the seals is not a difficult thing. Can check the stem guides, cam journals, valve clearance at the same time. I don't know (and don't want to know - heart attack) how much it would cost to have this done. Here they charge 110-140 € / hour.
Can you change the seals without removing the head?
I know its possible with some bikes (provided the valve doesent fall into the cylinder).
Would I need to buy a new valve cover gasket or could I reuse the existing one?
I will try disconnecting the oil pump and running the splatter test again. If im lucky I will see/feel evidence of oil around the two inner stems once they are extended.
Oil pump is a typo I guess :smile2:
Usually the valve cover gasket can be reused. You'll need to clean off the Three Bond though (and apply new Three Bond or alternative).
When removing valve cover be extra careful so the PAIR "pins" don't fall into the engine.
You have to remove the head to change the stem seals as valve assembly has to be disassembled for this.
Cheers for the reply.
Not sure I am confident enough to lift the head, but first things first ill try dry running the bike to find any evidence of oil spots or leaks around the valve stems and take it from there...
Mate, one way to check stem seals leaking, mate following, a big downhill run, throttle closed, gives high vacuum, open it up & your mate should have visible smoke. Very low mileage motor to be using oil. Id be checking all your vacuum hoses, not kinked or one on wrong connecter.
Quote from: grog on Thursday, 26 December 2019, 05:30 PM
Mate, one way to check stem seals leaking, mate following, a big downhill run, throttle closed, gives high vacuum, open it up & your mate should have visible smoke. Very low mileage motor to be using oil. Id be checking all your vacuum hoses, not kinked or one on wrong connecter.
It will give visible smoke if INTAKE valve stem seals are leaking, but it won't tell you anything about exhaust stem seals.
T24, good point, ill agree with you. I find this subject interesting but working out the answer is difficult. I just cant see how a 14 motor can need seals or rings with low ks. Hard to overheat, hard to flog to death, 2 reasons that could shorten its life. Can the pairs set up leak oil into motor? It also only goes to exhaust side? What about making up a temporary crankcase breather, oil filler, just to see if it stops oil use? Weve had similar story on this couple of years ago, dont think i saw a result.
Quote from: grog on Thursday, 26 December 2019, 06:05 PM
Can the pairs set up leak oil into motor? It also only goes to exhaust side?
Yes, the PAIR pins have an o-ring to go with. Maybe one has been lost or misaligned when the head cover was off for valve clearance inspection. Good point Grog.
OK cheers.
So checking the vacuum hoses? How do I do that?
Check the PAIRS system seals?
As for a temporary breather, how can I test this could have fixed the issue?
Quote from: vonny232 on Thursday, 26 December 2019, 09:50 PM
So checking the vacuum hoses? How do I do that?
Well... you look at them for kinks and if they attached where they should be. See manual for where they should be. However, I don't see how that could cause oil consumption.
Quote from: vonny232 on Thursday, 26 December 2019, 09:50 PM
Check the PAIRS system seals?
Lift the valve cover and have a look. See manual for their position.
Quote from: vonny232 on Thursday, 26 December 2019, 09:50 PM
As for a temporary breather, how can I test this could have fixed the issue?
Let
@grog answer this :confused1:
To check if temp breather fixes, only way is to ride and see if it stops oil consumption. Something like Spizzoils, posted a while back.
Sorry to be a pain but I still cannot see where the Oil can leak into the PAIR system? Where is the location of the potential breach between the internal cavity of the valve assembly, and where the gases are vented into the exhaust system (if thats where its vented?)
You said to lift the valve cover to take a look, but isnt the PAIR valve (and seal) located on TOP of the valve cover, so lifting the cover isnt necessary?
These pictures are from the service manual.
Update - I found this picture online.
Are you referring to the round, interconnected rubber seals in the centre of this picture?
No. I mean these:
Ok thanks. So where does this hole go to? Where does it vent into the exhaust?
Sorry for all the questions, I just need to understand as best I can.
I can't tell you where it vents into the exhaust. May be a long time until I have an opportunity to look.
Have you actually measured how much oil you are burning? Do you get blue smoke on acceleration? Have you checked oil level with the bike on the centre or side stand (or on rear stand if you don't have a centre stand). To me, if you are burning oil you should see this in the exhausst, so this means either worn rings or valve stem seals. The motor may be low ks, but if its been abused, there's no reason why rings or valve seals can't be worn. The carbon build up on pots 2 and 3 tells me that these are running too rich, so you need to balance the 4 throttle bodies first.
As far as I know pairs runs only on the intake air so should not affect oil consumption at combustion. You will always get some oil in the pot as the rings never fully clean all the oil off the cylinder wall.
Without knowing the history of the motor, it's hard to pinpoint, but again, if actually burning oil it can only be via the rings or valve stem seals.
Hi Eric,
Yes, I have measured the consumption numerous times. Its approx half litre every 600 miles or so. I always check the Oil on the centre stand (with a spirit level too lol). Its definitely being lost!
There is no noticeable Oil plume but I have been told theres sometimes (rarely) a small puff of smoke when I pull away, but nothing beyond that.
I had a compression test done last year and whilst the numbers were out a bit (approx 130PSI each cyinder) I took comfort from the consistency of the 4 pressure readings which infer that the pressure will be Ok and its the equipment that needs calibrating. I may be wrong there, but thats my initial thoughts.
Regarding PAIRS - Doesent the system vent into the exhaust? I though the point of it was to burn uncombusted gases?
Andre - regarding turning over the engine with the fuel pump disconnected (you suggested a while ago), do you mean the electric connection to the pump, or the fuel line disconnected?
Quote from: vonny232 on Tuesday, 07 January 2020, 06:24 PM
Regarding PAIRS - Doesent the system vent into the exhaust? I though the point of it was to burn uncombusted gases?
The air is taken from the airbox and it is vented into the exhaust ports. No oil involved unless dowel pin/o-ring is missing or damaged. Then oil will pass through it. Easiest check for that is to take off the cylinder head cover and take a look.
Quote from: vonny232 on Tuesday, 07 January 2020, 06:24 PM
Andre - regarding turning over the engine with the fuel pump disconnected (you suggested a while ago), do you mean the electric connection to the pump, or the fuel line disconnected?
Disconnect the electric connection (connector is in the vicinity of the airfilter). IMO lots easier and better than taking the spark plugs out (if you go by the plug route you should ground them to avoid damage to the coils).
Thanks Andre,
Well after my dry running tests (hopefully this weekend), the next step might be to remove the valve cover.
I note on a previous post you say the following parts will be needed, does the same apply to me?:
When you take off the head cover you will need:
Part numbers found here: Robinsons http://www.robinsonsfoundry.co.uk/shop/online-store/suzuki-parts-finder/gsx/gsx1400/k2-k3-k4-k5-k6-k7-2002-2007.htm#!gsx1400cylheadcover EXCEPT for the Suzuki Three Bond.
These 3 were all I needed.
1x CYLINDER HEAD COVER GASKET (11173-42F01)
2x GASKET (09168-08029) It says gasket but they are metal, kinda like the ones for the brake hoses.
1x Suzuki Three Bond, black (or equivalent) 9900031140THR
Unlikely that you will need
8x WASHER (09161-11008) These say washer but are made of rubber.
Depending on what you find you may need one or more of these
4x pins (09206-08007)
4x gaskets (11182-35F00)
A normal thickness gauge (.10 to .30mm in steps of .05mm) will do for just checking. Should the unlikely case happen that you need to adjust valve play, you need gauges with finer steps!
It is a fairly easy task, but be vigilant not to drop anything into the engine.
Oh, and regarding the Threebond, is this the stuff?
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Paste-Joint-Threebond-1207b-Tube-100g-Black/383332938350
Honestly, you probably get away with just the Three Bond. Everything else can be reused as long as it is not broken/missing.
Quote from: vonny232 on Tuesday, 07 January 2020, 10:20 PM
Oh, and regarding the Threebond, is this the stuff?
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Paste-Joint-Threebond-1207b-Tube-100g-Black/383332938350
Yes, that's the stuff.
With the cover off you have an opportunity to check valve clearances. They are probably within tolerance but I think a bit of practice in the mechanical realm will benefit you.
Quote from: vonny232 on Tuesday, 07 January 2020, 06:24 PM
Hi Eric,
Yes, I have measured the consumption numerous times. Its approx half litre every 600 miles or so. I always check the Oil on the centre stand (with a spirit level too lol). Its definitely being lost!
There is no noticeable Oil plume but I have been told theres sometimes (rarely) a small puff of smoke when I pull away, but nothing beyond that.
I had a compression test done last year and whilst the numbers were out a bit (approx 130PSI each cyinder) I took comfort from the consistency of the 4 pressure readings which infer that the pressure will be Ok and its the equipment that needs calibrating. I may be wrong there, but thats my initial thoughts.
Regarding PAIRS - Doesent the system vent into the exhaust? I though the point of it was to burn uncombusted gases?
Andre - regarding turning over the engine with the fuel pump disconnected (you suggested a while ago), do you mean the electric connection to the pump, or the fuel line disconnected?
Thanks, Should 've reread your earlier posts. 500ml in 600km is a lot of oil to lose. To me if it's leaking past the pairs valves and entering the exhaust, you should have a fair bit of smoke me thinks. Any other oil leaks around the engine? What oil brand and grade are you running? Have checked the airbox for oil? It could be travelling up the pairs tuning and entering the airbox that way. Removal of the pairs valves and blanking off the covers is easy to do, see separate thread on here. Can't see where else you could be losing oil apart from external leaks or via exhaust.
Vonny, roughly a litre every 2000 k, thats gonna be hard to figure out. I have no more answers. Looking forward to your solution. Personally, id live with it. Stick a litre in at 2k and change at 4. My oil always changed at 4 but lucky she doesnt use a drop. Years ago wife and i had exactly same cars, same ks. Hers used no oil, mine same as your bike. No idea why, neither ever been apart or overheated.
I tried turning over the bike without the fuel pump connected. I didnt manage to find any oil spots, maybe the Oil was too viscous (as it was a cold day) or I didnt turn it over long enough? (I turned it over for about 10 seconds).
However, I did take off the two PAIRs caps and had a look in there. Interestingly, the inner chamber on each side had a noticeable oil build up which was not present on the outer chambers. See the pictures.
The chamber on the Right side of the engine had the most Oil build up. The chamber on the Left side of the engine was also oily but not as bad. Both outer chambers were blackened but not oily at all, they seemed dry.
Maybe this correlates with what I observed previously, which was a larger carbon build up in the two inner cylinder exhaust portals?
Is this something worth exploring more?
Yes, check the airbox should be oily too in that case as the air is vented back into the airbox. If it was mine id be removing all the pairs system and fitting blanking plates or plugs as most have done.
I thought the reed valves prevent the dirty air returning? Plus how come the two outer PAIR chambers are dry?
Hi Vonny, are the spark plugs oil fouled ?
Quote from: rollerfish01 on Monday, 13 January 2020, 10:49 PM
Hi Vonny, are the spark plugs oil fouled ?
I didnt have the correct socket, so will try and remove the plugs next week when it arrives.
Am I right in presuming that if all 4 plugs are clean, then the problem is likely somewhere around the exhaust portal (the PAIRS vent o-ring or the valve stem seals)?
Quote from: vonny232 on Tuesday, 14 January 2020, 08:22 AM
Quote from: rollerfish01 on Monday, 13 January 2020, 10:49 PM
Hi Vonny, are the spark plugs oil fouled ?
I didnt have the correct socket, so will try and remove the plugs next week when it arrives.
Use torque wrench when tightening the plugs - 11nm.
Quote from: vonny232 on Tuesday, 14 January 2020, 08:22 AM
I didnt have the correct socket, so will try and remove the plugs next week when it arrives.
Am I right in presuming that if all 4 plugs are clean, then the problem is likely somewhere around the exhaust portal (the PAIRS vent o-ring or the valve stem seals)?
I have no sure answer for that... I think if the plugs are clean, at least the oil leaking would not affect the performance of the bike very much.
On my high mileage second hand bike, I replaced the PAIRS o-ring, the valve stem seals and put on a spare cylinder head, it fixed certain problems.
But it still burn motor oil, so I guess it was the piston rings worn out, I plan to replace them later.
Didn't a compression or leak down test rule out the piston rings?
What is the mileage of your bike and how much oil does it burn?
Compression or leak test will tell you something about your compression rings, but it won't tell you about stucked oil rings.
You can try highly washing oils.
I have 143 000 km / 89 000 miles and the oil consumption is 0.1-0.2L / 5000 km.
Quote from: vonny232 on Wednesday, 15 January 2020, 07:29 AM
Didn't a compression or leak down test rule out the piston rings?
What is the mileage of your bike and how much oil does it burn?
I think my bike is an exceptional example, it should be poorly maintained by the previous owner(s).
e.g. it has a broken exhaust valve, oil flood PAIR chambers...
The compression test reading is normal. It burn around 1-1.5 liter for 5000 kms (Summer burn more, Winter burn less)
The symptoms is when the engine was fully heat up (or became very hot in summer time) or run for 20-30kms, white smoke would occasionally came out from the exhaust when the bike is stopped at the traffic light. White smoke would disappeared when the bike run again.
Also the spark plugs were oil fouled lightly after 500-800km. One of the spark plug would stop firing when the oil fouled became serious enough. I then noticed and would take the spark plugs out for cleaning and they became good again.
So I GUESS it may be the piston ring lightly worn out (or it get stuck?) and then burn oil when the engine become very hot.
Quote from: rollerfish01 on Friday, 17 January 2020, 02:15 AM
Quote from: vonny232 on Wednesday, 15 January 2020, 07:29 AM
Didn't a compression or leak down test rule out the piston rings?
What is the mileage of your bike and how much oil does it burn?
I think my bike is an exceptional example, it should be poorly maintained by the previous owner(s).
e.g. it has a broken exhaust valve, oil flood PAIR chambers...
The compression test reading is normal. It burn around 1-1.5 liter for 5000 kms (Summer burn more, Winter burn less)
The symptoms is when the engine was fully heat up (or became very hot in summer time) or run for 20-30kms, white smoke would occasionally came out from the exhaust when the bike is stopped at the traffic light. White smoke would disappeared when the bike run again.
Also the spark plugs were oil fouled lightly after 500-800km. One of the spark plug would stop firing when the oil fouled became serious enough. I then noticed and would take the spark plugs out for cleaning and they became good again.
So I GUESS it may be the piston ring lightly worn out (or it get stuck?) and then burn oil when the engine become very hot.
- when the engine is hot, the oil is thinner & passes worn rings easier. Could try some additives into the oil to help clean / stop the oil loss, or put thicker oil in, or strip, check & repair it where required.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Friday, 17 January 2020, 02:29 AMCould try some additives into the oil to help clean
=Highly washing heavy duty diesel motor oil, like Mobil Delvac MX 15w40 or Teboil SHPD 15w40 or Castrol... etc.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Friday, 17 January 2020, 02:29 AM
Could try some additives into the oil to help clean / stop the oil loss, or put thicker oil in, or strip, check & repair it where required.
This is something that was mentioned before. Someone said the Oil Rings might have become gummed up with burned Oil which reduces their tension and allows Oil to pass. Is this what you are suggesting?
T24 mentioned that worn/damaged Oil rings wont show up on a compression/leakdown test.
Ultimately there are a sequence of options to try and identify the problem, I just need to know that sequence :)
My plug removing socket arrived in the post today so ill whip off the plugs and take a look. Might even use an endoscopic camera to peek into the pistons to see if theres a noticeable buildup of burned oil on pistons 2 & 3...
Oh, and I read elsewhere that a more agressive alternative to using washing Oil is to pour kerosene or penetrating Oil into the cylinders (via the spark plug holes), leave for 48 hours to try and unjam the rings, manually turn the engine over, then replace the Oil.
Any views on this?
Right! I took off the plugs and used an endocscopic camera to peek into the cylinders via the Plug holes.
Got some pretty interesting feedback.
Summary:
1) As I posted previously, there was significantly more carbon buildup in the exhaust manifold for Cylinders 2&3 than for Cylinders 1&4.
- This seems to be confirmed by the tops of the pistons 2&3 having noticeably more Oil buildup.
- I separately photographed the piston tops around the inlet valve cutouts and the outlet valve cutouts. Piston 2&3 inlet valve cutouts appeared "cleaner" than the outlet valve coutouts.
- Pistons 1&4 inlet and outlet valve cutouts looked very similar.
2) All 4 spark plugs were sooty and grimy, but not really Oily. This could mean its running rich. I wonder if there is a separate issue with the injectors?
Please see photos of the 4 piston tops, focused on the inlet valve cutouts and outlet valve cutouts.
I wrapped masking trap around a flat headed screwdriver and pushed it into the cylinder cavity and gently scraped the top of each piston. As expected, there was a small oil residue on the screwdriver after piston 1&4 and a noticeably large oil residue after piston 2&3 (I noticed the residue felt grainy when I rubbed it on my fingers, which must be due to the oil getting scorched by the heat within the cylinders). Cant be good for the valve sealing!
All 4 plugs were quite sooty. The ceramic insulator was totally black. They were grimy too, but was more of a waxy feel, not particularly oily.
I wonder if there is a separate issue here, with the bike running too rich on all 4 cylinders for some reason. Wonder if the previous owner did something to try and improve performance?
Is there anything I can do to check the effectiveness of the injectors, or is it too complicated?
I'm leaving this to the experts, however, my laymans view is those close up pics of the piston shows damage to the top. you can see small bits of metal embedded into the top of the piston. Something has been in there while it's been running, maybe a broken ring? n it's been pulverised & fused onto the piston.
Strange story this one. I have no idea but will keep following, interested to see the outcome. My only thought is it looks like motor has to come apart. Sad story.
Cheers for the responses. Not the best opinions to wake up to.
FWIW, I dont believe thats bits of pulverised metal. I used a screwdriver to lightly scrape the top of the piston and that buildup appears to be carbon (it felt grainy on my fingers).
I will have another look today with the endoscopic camera. I will try and get a view of the walls of the cylinder to see if theres any evidence of damage (I dont believe there is as the performance is good and there isnt loads of smoke).
It is however pretty clear that Cylinders 2&3 are where the Oil is being burned...
Question: If the Oil leak is via the PAIRS o-rings or exhaust valve seals, can the Oil be dragged back into the cylinder as what appears here?
I'll try to cheer you up :grin:
These are the colder type spark plugs NGK CR9EK. They don't allow for enough heat to burn off the carbon. Better use standard plugs (NGK CR8EK).
I don't see damage to pistons on the pics.
2+3 are clearly oily.
As to valve stem seals: Do a leak down test.
As to PAIRS o-rings: Get the f...ing cylinder head cover off and take a look.
It gets even worse lol
Just spoke to an experienced engine mechanic who has overhauled this engine several times, and the bandit engine as well.
He reckons based on me describing the endoscopic photos that its a problem with the bore or the piston rings for cylinders 2&3 (and its very unlikely to be the valve seals or PAIRS o-rings).
He said the cost of an engine piston overhaul (including possible rebore and piston rings) would be as expensive as buying a replacement engine once time labour and unexpected problems are factored in.
To cut a long story short, he said there was no point proceeding with an overhaul as it could end up swallowing loads of money, and instead recommended to keep it topped up with oil and add some STP additive to try and slow down the Oil loss and drive it as normal :(
Ill replace the plugs though, cheers Andre!
Did you also tell him that compression was equal on ALL cylinders?
Seriously, taking the head cover off and a looksy costs almost nothing in dough and labour.
But he is definetly right when it comes to rebuild vs. replacing.
Yeah I did, he said all 4 cylinders may be worn (maybe prev owner never changed the oil), but possibly more oil escaping from the oil rings for the inner cylinders. That was one theory, but his broader point was that investigating further could become a money pit.
Yeah ill take the valve cover off anyway (as you say, its worth a looksy), need to buy some liquid gasket first!
AND Yeah all 4 cylinders may be worn but NOBODY will know unless a compression test is done using a CALIBRATED tester!
I used two compression testers of unknown calibration status on a good engine. One showed 152 PSI while the other showed 181 PSI. By 152 PSI (156 being the cut-off) Suzuki recommends a rebuild, while 181 is 10 PSI above standard compression of the 14 engine.
Not doing basic tests correctly will certainly lead to unneccessary repairs or replacement engines!
I might just buy a compression tester myself, they dont seem too expensive :grin:
QuoteQuestion: If the Oil leak is via the PAIRS o-rings or exhaust valve seals, can the Oil be dragged back into the cylinder as what appears here?
Unlikely :cry2:
Vonny, seems you have three choices. No easy solutions except one. 1: Pull your motor down and rebuild as needed. 2: Source another complete motor. 3: Youre only using 1 litre around 2 th ks. Just top it up. No smoke, no leaks, just do it. As i said b4, top it up once, next time is oil change time. Not being blunt but i am. Motor still has enough power? If yes, just ride it & enjoy. Much easier option for you, mentally and money wise. Just my opinion.
Ok folks. Yeah the choices are not great.
In the short term, I will do the following:
1) Take off the rocker cover and check the valve clearances (might as well while its winter with the tank off).
2) Get another compression test to see if the 130PSI reading is accurate or not (either a 2nd opinion, or ill buy my own and test it). - Question, can you buy "calibrated" compression testers?
3) Put the bike back together and use an additive (like STP?) to try and reduce the Oil leakage.
In the longer term ill keep an eye out for an affordable engine. Maybe for next winters project.
Does it really matter if the compression tester is calibrated, as long as all cylinders are the same or one shows up different is all you kneed to know.
Quote from: mjgt on Monday, 27 January 2020, 07:54 PM
Does it really matter if the compression tester is calibrated, as long as all cylinders are the same or one shows up different is all you kneed to know.
Yes, I think it does (going by what Andre said).
The engine mechanic suggested all 4 cylinders may be worn (given the reported 130PSI per cylinder). As a result, he does NOT recommend an engine overhaul.
If however, it turns out the compression is actually good for all 4 cylinders, then perhaps an engine overhaul would be less risky.
Quote from: vonny232 on Monday, 27 January 2020, 09:03 PM
Quote from: mjgt on Monday, 27 January 2020, 07:54 PM
Does it really matter if the compression tester is calibrated, as long as all cylinders are the same or one shows up different is all you kneed to know.
Yes, I think it does (going by what Andre said).
The engine mechanic suggested all 4 cylinders may be worn (given the reported 130PSI per cylinder). As a result, he does NOT recommend an engine overhaul.
If however, it turns out the compression is actually good for all 4 cylinders, then perhaps an engine overhaul would be less risky.
Does it really matter to have an accurate and calibrated compression tester as well as doing the test correctly? I think so. It is one thing if the tool is measuring the real pressure and another thing is when it is a totally bogus piece of junk. Have seen reported comparison of 2 tools where one showed even pressures while the other showed one cylinder clearly having much lower pressure than the others.
There is the approach of one mechanic who said that he hadn't done a compression check in 30 years. If he sees a problem he just tears the engines apart and then sees clearly what needs to be done. If you don't have to worry about your or others wallet than that is a fine way of doing things!
I wouldn't base a decison on a test result that I don't trust. 2 Compression chambers look squeeky clean while 2 show oil and carbon chunks. It is clear that there is a problem on #2+3. Maybe it is "only" the oil rings. As T24 said this won't affect the compression. If it's just the oil rings then using thicker oil won't do much good. Still expensive to replace these rings.
You can just keep riding as is. Millions do keep (d)riding their vehicles in similar situations. Fine with me. With an oil-burner they wouldn't do that for long nowadays in Germany as emission testing will get to them within 2 years.
Unfortunately, if you can't do the work yourself, it can get expensive. A used replacement engine might be the ticket but it is expensive (the engine itself and the labor). A rebuild even more. When you replace the engine, the old one can be opened up by yourself (?!). If it turns out that it needs only "inexpensive" things like new valve stem seals or oil rings, then you have a spare engine or can sell it and recover some of the costs.
QuoteIf however, it turns out the compression is actually good for all 4 cylinders, then perhaps an engine overhaul would be less risky.
Yes.... perhaps.
QuoteQuestion, can you buy "calibrated" compression testers?
Sure you can. For the right money. Unfortunately I haven't seen any on the usual suspect Internet sites that state their accuracy. Didn't look that hard though. Also hard to determine how easy they can be calibrated (they all can in the end). Calibration is not a "do-it-once" deal. Depends on "requirements" how often it needs to be done. For compression check it needs to be in the ball park. Size of the park and frequency of the plays are up to you as the owner. For calibration you need a reference too.
There are places that will do the calibration for your $$.
A professional workshop who has pride in their work will have a reasonable accurate and calibrated compression tester. Likely the best option for most.
For myself I will get a pressure transducer for use with my oscilloscope. These all state their accuracy and are easier to calibrate. Can do much more with that combo than just compression check. Probably can buy a good replacement engine with a setup like that. It's a hobby - so money is well spent.
If you were keeping the bike long term, and if not confident to attempt your own rebuild, getting a reputable indy or workshop to diagnose and repair would be my course of action. You may very well end up with a sweet runnning unit.
If not, then ride the bike as is and perhaps sell it in the short or medium term.
These engines are relatively bullet proof, but everything has a limit, so the carbon build up in #2 and #3 will start to affect valves and seats, rings and pistons eventually, making repair / replacement inevitable and more costly.
Entirely your call.
Cheers for the feedback guys.
@Andre - I work in electronics so use Scopes all the time. Didnt know you could use a pressure transducer to measure bike compression. Do you have any info on this?
In the meantime, I have a friend who will lend me his standard compression gauge. He reckons its accurate but cant be 100% sure.
@Eric GSX1400K3 Knowing myself, I will keep the bike long term. I suppose taking the decision to rebuild the engine depends on how confident I am that just cylinders 2&3 are leaky, and the other two are Ok. This depends on a reliable compression test and I will look into this.
As I said before, I will likely look for a spare engine over the summer, and any plan to overhaul the existing engine will happen once its been replaced.
A couple more questions:
1) I read elsewhere that cheaper quality Oil is more likely to break down over time. Is it right to think using a very high quality (and likely expensive) Oil would last longer than cheaper stuff? I read some folk put fully synthetic 10w-40 Oil into the bike without any problems? Perhaps even a slightly thicker 15w40 might have less tendency to leak past the rings?
2) As Eric said, the carbon deposits inside 2&3 will eventually take its toll on the rings and valve seats. What can I do to buy some time here so I get at least another summer season out of the bike? Is there anything I can do to try and remove/burn off the carbon deposits without removing the head? Is there any kind of liquid I can pour into the cylinder to "dissolve" or "loosen" the deposits so they are expelled out the the exhaust portals?
Ideas such as running some "washing" diesel Oil for a few hundred miles, or flush the system with some "sea foam"? Any views?
Just ride it mate, stick 600 ml in every 2k. Thats a lot of riding, so many nice corners to enjoy.
QuoteAndre - I work in electronics so use Scopes all the time. Didnt know you could use a pressure transducer to measure bike compression. Do you have any info on this?
Lots of infos available on these. Just search online "oscilloscope pressure transducer"
An example that explains some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mJdxrhx45Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mJdxrhx45Q)
Instead of buying an expensive one, DIY options abound.
You might also look up "relative compression testing". An oscilloscope with an Amp-probe allows you to do that.
There is just a ton of stuff that can be tested with an oscilloscope.
No need to buy an automotive oscilloscope. A regular scope is just not as comfortable. Take a look at https://www.picoauto.com/library/automotive-guided-tests (https://www.picoauto.com/library/automotive-guided-tests) for many applications.
Quote1) I read elsewhere that cheaper quality Oil is more likely to break down over time. Is it right to think using a very high quality (and likely expensive) Oil would last longer than cheaper stuff? I read some folk put fully synthetic 10w-40 Oil into the bike without any problems? Perhaps even a slightly thicker 15w40 might have less tendency to leak past the rings?
The VI improvers break down quickly in the gearbox. With a "cheap" oil I noticed gear changing became less smooth after about 2k km. The full synthetic oil I use does not show this "behavior". Full synthetic oil does have a much higher VI inherently and does not need much, if any, improvers (depending on the viscosity range).
However, in your case the oil may not stay in the engine long enough to crunch the VI Improvers to pieces sufficiently to warrant an expensive oil!
The operator manual allows for a 15W-50 oil. A thicker oil will have less tendency to leak for sure.
QuoteIn the meantime, I have a friend who will lend me his standard compression gauge. He reckons its accurate but cant be 100% sure.
It's good to get a comparison with another gauge.
Thanks Folks.
To be clear, the manual allows for 15w50 Oil (NOT 15w40)? As I saw on another thread people talking about 15w40 when discussing types of Oil.
I live in Ireland and other than a plan to drive to Scotland this year, I dont have plans for any long treks (especially to very hot countries) so I suspect a thicker Oil will be Ok provided others have used it before.
I see Motul do a 5100 semi and 7100 fully synth...
Oh, and ill check out those pressure transducers :)
From the Suzuki factory service manual
"FUEL AND OIL RECOMMENDATION" from Service Manual page 1-5:
Just noticed that even a 20W-50 is allowed (Also note the environmental temperatures)
2 pictures, 1 says 95 octane & the other 91 octane. Why can't (didn't) they get their 'spec' agreed before printing .
Quote from: KiwiCol on Sunday, 02 February 2020, 07:13 AM
2 pictures, 1 says 95 octane & the other 91 octane. Why can't (didn't) they get their 'spec' agreed before printing .
These may be both "correct" :doh: They mention the method used for the 91 octane value (Research Octane). This is missing for the 95 octane. Could be that the "Technical Writer(s)" goofed up. Not the first time I might say :frustrated:
In the US they use (RON+MON)/2
Examples:
(RON 91, MON 82,5): 86,8
(RON 95, MON 85): 90
(RON 98, MON 88): 93
I'd go by the value which has the method mentioned with it. Also the table (without the method mentioned) shows US volume numbers even though the 14 was never sold on the American continent. Someone was sloppy :jack:
@KiwiCol The picture is from a UK Suzuki workshop manual from 2002 .
The supplement from 2003 says the same
:cheers:
Both pics are in the same manual (K2) with supplements for K3-K5. Just like you can find other wrong values repeated within the same manual. Worst are the wrong values where the correct value is never mentioned once in the manual. That cost me dearly but will make me many experiences richer.
If compression between all for is relatively even (if gauge is not calibrated would have the same error on all measurements) then id be reasonably confident rings are ok. Id vbe focussing on the valve seats and guides, relatively easy to do and would avoid having to strip the engine down. Then id use a quality semi synth oil, plenty of info on thos forum, and ride it, monitoring oil consumption
Quote from: vonny232 on Wednesday, 25 December 2019, 08:38 PM
Can you change the seals without removing the head?
Quote from: Andre on Wednesday, 25 December 2019, 09:39 PM
You have to remove the head to change the stem seals as valve assembly has to be disassembled for this.
@vonny232 I stand corrected :onya: With the right ideas and tools it can be done without removing the head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsiPoYy-b5s&list=PLGawEHwkX4aKJsQdfpgiX7ZwLyQs2iu9L&index=18
:onya:
Pretty std to use compressed air to keep the cylinder pressurised when changing valve spring collets and springs. Valve seals and seat facing will need the head removed.
A magnetic tipped tool is essential.
Another way is to have the piston at tdc and let the valve rest on the piston top
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Tuesday, 04 February 2020, 12:11 PM
Valve seals [...]. will need the head removed.
The point of the video is that you can replace the seals without removing the head.
Yes, you are correct,sorry didnt watch the entire thing first time. But if valve seats are worn...
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Tuesday, 04 February 2020, 12:38 PM
Yes, you are correct,sorry didn't watch the entire thing first time. But if valve seats are worn...
Let me try and finish for you: ... I wouldn't be satisfied just replacing the seals. The head would come off so I can do a proper check of the guides, valves, and valve seats (and more).
I posted the video as I answered incorrectly to the question if the head needs to come off to change the seals.
I hate half-ass jobs. But others (and their wallets) would go for this. Or would just pour in thicker oil. Each to their own.
My thoughts on Vonny motor, i couldnt be bothered with all youve done. Photos down bore etc. I wouldve sat down and chose to just top up or if it really worried me, pull motor out. Head and barrels off, check it out. Full head service, my local can do that so must be a similar bloke everywhere. I doubt rebore needed unless something really bad has happened in the past. New rings, head serviced, throw it back in and enjoy.
Hi Folks, been a while.
Today I performed a COLD compression test and got some pretty good results.
Its odd because I performed a HOT compression test a few weeks ago and got terrible readings (like 100PSI per cylinder) but as the bike cooled a bit (over a period of perhaps 30 mins) the compression started increasing to 130psi or so - WEIRD.
So I repeated again today on a cold engine and got the following:
1: 162
2: 160
3: 168
4: 165
I repeated each one twice.
I dont know what to think, the previous bike mechanic told me it was around 130PSI each but never said if it was a warm engine or cold. I certainly dont understand why a HOT engine would give a terrible result, which gets slowly better as the bike cools (but is still plenty warm).
In any event, I put the right plugs in (the CR8EK instead of the CR9EK) and it ran great. Had a lovely sunny ride and took my mind off all that Corona Virus stuff.
Ill get it serviced soon, put the 15W-40 engine Oil in and ride it for the season. Just gonna replace the downpipes and collector and im good to go :)
I daresay on a hot engine, clearances are at maximum, allowing more pressure losses than when cold.
Fitting correct plugs would be a great help, i reckon the biggest issue you had was the incorrect plugs.
When measuring compression on a hot engine (after a longer ride) I had a lower compression than after a 12 min idle to warm up the engine. Basically the same behavior observed by you although the difference was smaller (12 PSI).
That clearances are at a maximum when engine is hot goes against my religion :confused1: I rather think that oil viscosity is the variable to look at.
Anyway, if the bike runs great now all is good :cheers:
Vonny, glad its sorted.
Hi, i just wondered what the solution to this issue was. Was it simply changing the plugs to a hotter plug? I have a similar bike, large engine (1300), and without wanting to have eggs thrown at me (its a Honda cb1300), have a similar issue of consuming half a litre in 1000 miles and wanted to explore whether the 1400 has a similar issue of consuming some oil.... thanks :)
AFAIK the 1402 uses very little oil, unless theres a fairly serious issue with the engine.
for what it's worth, I never touch mine, service to service. Oil level stays the same right through.
Mine 14 only ever uses oil if it leaks, traditionally from a burst oil cooler. However a mate's CB1300 does burn oil when ridden hard, you can smell it miles away.
As for leaving the head on to the do stem seals, the old way to do it if you don't have compressed air is to poke lots of thin rope or thick string down the sparkplug hole & turn the piston towards TDC till it stops.
Was there ever a final conclusion Vonny. Hotter plugs dont stop oil consumption.