Gentlemen, I'm in a bit of a quandary, went to run the 14s round the block yesterday, 1st one fine, second, spins over nice & fast, but no go, pulled the plugs, ZILCH, so i'm assuming there's no feed to the coils.
Checked the codes, nothing came up, fuses fine, went for the CD unit, then remembered there aint one!!
Turn key, full needle sweep check, can hear pump running & priming, engine spins fast, so the CDi unit is obviously part of the main ECU.
I THINK the ECUs can be swapped over to check, but can any of you gurus out there confirm that it is safe to do so, as I don't wish to make things worse!!
That's a real odd one Lawrie. I'm no gentleman or guru, so mine is only guess work, but could it be a fuse? or disconnected plug somewhere?
You can bypass the clutch switch see if its just that?
If it spins over then the clutch, stand and kill switches are likely to be all fine.
Corrosion in the wiring connectors would be my next thing to have a good look at along with some multi meter work to see where the leccy is going or not.
One thing is clear and that it is something common to all plugs
K2-K4 ECUs can be swapped with no issues.
K5 onwards I think you'll need to use the key that matches the ECU for the immobiliser.
You can't swap pre-K5 with K5 onwards as the plugs don't fit on the ECU.
maybe check the low tension lead Lawrie
Both of them as I'm pretty sure the coils fire independently of each other. I wonder if they have a common earth??
Do the plugs come out wet? If not then I suspect the ECU is registering the engine turning to fire the injectors either, but I'd expect a code of the crank sensor had gone as it'd still see movement in the cam sensor.
Thanks for replies fellas, I'm busy at the mo with other projects, but now I've been assured that the ecu's can be swapped, i'll do that first,
so if it WORKS, its an ecu problem, if the same, then i'll break out the test meter & start a series of eliminations!!
Don't rule out a dry joint somewhere Lawrie, had that years ago on one of my Kawasakis, and it was a dry joint on the main power lead to the coils.
Had no spark and no fuel pump but the starter turned. All isolated measurements I took were ok. Read online that ignition switch could cause this as well as no spark alone (continuously and intermittent). Checked the continuity of the switch as per service manual. Didn't get a beep on B/W - O/Y. Found out later that it couldn't because of a build-in resistor on B/W (100 ohm - not mentioned in the manual).
Took the switch apart, which required drilling out of 2 break-off-by design screws. Saw the resistor which caused the continuity-beep to fail. The contacts didn't look as bad as I had seen in online pics. Cleaned them and serviced the mechanical parts. Installed the switch thinking that it was not the culprit. Cussed and hit the starter - surprise, the engine started and no problems since then.
Advice to service the "officially" non-serviceable ignition switch. A couple pics, one of the screws that make it "non-serviceable" and one of the contact plate.
Well done Andre! That's another detailed / clever repair. You a smart cookie for sure.
Thanks for the flowers Col, I am a cookie for sure, smart? well yes, but lots more smarter than me out there. I love when someone tells me "you can't do that" or "you will never get this back together". Hardly anything more motivating than this, even when having thoughts like that myself (which get banned immediately) .
BIG thanks to those who reported ignition switch "mysteries" on the net. BIG "you are disgusting in your greed" to those companies who make it difficult to repair or service their products to entice us to buy new. The switch would have cost me 140€. Add lots more € to buy matching locks for tank, seat, and helmet holder. Now I have a smooth working lock due to replacing the microscopic amount of dried grease with a truck load of fresh stuff.
good catch Andre :clapping:
Good one Andre,
I believe the resister is there for theft prevention to stop hot wiring.
Cheers,
Rick
OK, so I got round to try a few things, first up, I think the ECU is good, as I swapped them over & the 'good' bike started up & ran fine with the non-running bikes ECU, but the non-runner again wont run with the 'good' unit, if that makes sense!!
Now for the weird bit, the manual tells me to check battery voltages at various points, which I have, BUT instead of 12.5-13v , i'm getting 11.5 everywhere instead, so I seem to be losing a volt or so in the wiring, but I AM getting voltages everywhere!!
VERY careful scrutiny reviles a 'sort-of' spark now & again ( from all 4 ) so I'm assuming a common supply problem, also, if I actually HOLD a plug, I get a whack!!
Every connector has been inspected & re-fitted, they LOOK OK.
The manual specifies a 'peak-voltage' setting, so I'm assuming a specialist meter??
My meter is a high-end device, but is still a basic unit & when I did the tests, I was getting readings but not sure if they relate to the manual's specs.
Pump runs, tried all the interlocks, clutch, sidestand, killswitch etc. etc. just no spark!!
Head scratching time!!
Low voltage could be a dodgy earth, which would also explain the poor/intermittent spark.
Hi Lawrie,
I'm not able to help you pin point the problem, but I applaud your rational approach to isolate each item in the iggy loop, coils, ECU etc. My experience with iggies over a long life is that problems mostly occur in the iggy switch, ECU or EI units, and dry joint cable connectors.
I'm certain I'm not telling you anything new here, but this is where I'd be expending all my energy. Just one dry joint in the harness and you get high resistance and with it, reduced voltage. Good luck in your search
Quote from: Hooli on Sunday, 20 August 2017, 09:31 PM
Low voltage could be a dodgy earth, which would also explain the poor/intermittent spark.
Yes good advice this. I failed to mention it.
Quote from: lawrie on Sunday, 20 August 2017, 08:41 PM
The manual specifies a 'peak-voltage' setting, so I'm assuming a specialist meter??
My meter is a high-end device, but is still a basic unit & when I did the tests, I was getting readings but not sure if they relate to the manual's specs.
I think the Fluke 87 meter (Very expensive) has peak-voltage function. There are also peak-voltage adapters for "normal" multimeters. These are still expensive. Here is a link on how to build one yourself for pennies.
https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1034259-build-your-own-peak-voltage-adapter/ (https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1034259-build-your-own-peak-voltage-adapter/)
Certainly good to have this adapter in the tool box.
Well after several more hours disconnecting, checking, cleaning & re-connecting, I'm no further forward, all B/W earth wires check out ok & all are in good condition, as for the 'peak voltage adapter' above, i'm going to make one & see how we get on!!
Getting a bit baffled now.
I'm even considering taking bits off the good bike, swapping them over, one at a time to gradually confirm & eliminate components, bit of a ball-ache, but at least I have the capability to do so!!
Have you taken the ignition switch apart and cleaned its contacts yet?
I'd also try swapping batteries - even good ones can go iffy from time to time, has caught me out a couple of times Lawrie (and a simple thing to try)
Hello, may be coming in late on this but, last year i had a problem with rough running tick over miss fire. whilest trying variouse thing s my mate was at the front off the bike when i reved it up he said your light just dimmed !! at this i checked voltage on tick over.ok on reving it dropped below 11 . disconnected battery, reached under bike disconnected voltage regulator/rectifier. cleaned with electrical cleaner re assembled and everything back to normal readings, and running. poss not getting right voltage to main components at said requirements.
as above. it has spark but weak and low voltage the clue. why? battery is the start. if not it, need to find weak link. battery has also tricked me on cars, hondas, v8 toyota, demand perfect volts or just crank and not start. if you solve your prob, can you solve my headlight only working sometimes. i cant. have checked all i know.
A few more hours today, it has a brand-new gel battery that starts the other 1400 instantly, brand-new plugs.
Since its ALL 4 not working, I'm doubting the coils or anything common to them all.
Checked the side-stand switch, took out the crank-position sensor, & its within spec.
Re-assembled, turned it over, & did see weak sparks for a few cranks, & the plugs were fuel-wet, so i'm still inclined to go for electrics rather than fuel.
ALL earths check out good, but I seem to be losing 1/2 volt (11.6v) everywhere there should be 12-13v.
However, the starter is getting the full whack & spins the motor fast.
I have yet to implement the ign-switch strip, I just about ready to get the bikes side by side & start swapping back & forth until I get a result!!
Quote from: lawrie on Tuesday, 22 August 2017, 02:32 AM
I have yet to implement the ign-switch strip, I just about ready to get the bikes side by side & start swapping back & forth until I get a result!!
I feel your pain Bro!
The good part of all this PIA is that you will have a thoroughly checked electrical system. Although I don't have any problems, I only have a few more connectors and wires to check and maintain.
UN-BLOODY-BELIEVABLE!!!!
Well, I bought all the components & made up a peak-voltage adapter to fit my multi-meter, then went through all the various tests on the different sensors etc.
ALL checked out OK!!
Now I'm starting to question my 'limited' abilities, & once again whilst laying the plugs against the frame, I noticed that the although the plugs weren't actually sparking, there WAS a big fat spark from the plug thread to the frame.....EH????
Exactly the same for all 4 plugs, so I metered them & they seemed to be fine according to the meter, but no spark!
Luckily I still had 4 old plugs, tested them & they were the same, last ditch effort I fitted them, BAM! Away she went as soon as I touched the button WTF is going on???
How the f*** can 4 almost new plugs check out good but not spark, & the real worry is that a month or so ago, I fired her up & she ran no probs, so I wonder if there is still an underlying electrical problem somewhere.
There is another 'hiccup' ( there just had to be ) although it instantly fired up, she went straight up to about 4 thousand rpm, no throttle, so i'm now wondering if somehow I 'knocked a sensor out of plonk' whilst testing, so more messin about, at least its running
( for now ) :confused1:
Watch this space :laugh:
SORTED!
It starts & runs like the day it came out of the factory, tweaked this, tweaked that, a but of pushing & shoving & all is well again, just cant believe I had 4 dud plugs, tried them in the other 1400, no go!!
Don't know what the tickover SHOULD be, but its nice at 1000 rpm, running the old plugs for now, but will get 4 new-uns next week, I wonder if THEY will work!!
That is really odd, 1 dud plug I can understand - but 4? Very odd!!
Well done on persevering Lawrie!!!
What brand plugs were they ?
I've had new Ngk's fail on me before
NGK CR8EK new in boxes. C=10mm thread, R= reistor plug, 8= heat range, E= thread length 19mm, & K= twin electrodes.
The BIG mystery is that they DID work & have only done less than 10 miles as I don't actually use the bike, now all 4 failed at the same time????
Bung those plugs into your other 14 & you'll soon see if it's them.
It may not be directly related to this thread, but I know a while back there were "Fake" NGK plugs coming out of China.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Monday, 28 August 2017, 04:29 AM
Bung those plugs into your other 14 & you'll soon see if it's them.
I did, & they don't!!
I did mention the fact 3 or 4 posts ago. :grin:
Quote from: Tony Nitrous on Monday, 28 August 2017, 04:39 AM
It may not be directly related to this thread, but I know a while back there were "Fake" NGK plugs coming out of China.
Yeah Tony, I did wonder about that myself, but to be honest, they LOOK OK.
Odd indeed. Glad you sorted it out (hopefully). Looks can be deceiving. Them fakers can be very good. Haven't heard of anything killing all plugs at once. So, I asked my good friend google "killing spark plugs". Immediately found a post where where a guy had this issue all 4 new NGK dead. Fitted the old ones - engine runs. He got another set of plugs and engine didn't start. He put another old? coil in and engine starts with the new plugs.
Who knows if it was a bad coil killing the plugs or fake plugs killing the coil, I don't. But definitely would get my next plug from a "reputable" (for sure a different) dealer and test the crap out of the coils.
Added: And use Tony's above image and the old plugs to check if you got non-fakes.
Quote from: lawrie on Monday, 28 August 2017, 04:40 AM
Quote from: KiwiCol on Monday, 28 August 2017, 04:29 AM
Bung those plugs into your other 14 & you'll soon see if it's them.
I did, & they don't!!
I did mention the fact 3 or 4 posts ago. :grin:
Sorry Lawrie, when I looked at it this morning (6.30am) I missed all of the additions to this thread & just read the ones on the new page. my error.
Nice one, I've not heard of four plugs failing together before either.
Tickover should be 1,100rpm. But I run mine nearer 1,000rpm as I find it a touch nicer for creeping through traffic.
I had a similar problem with too cold a plug being fitted. The ceramic insulator gets coated in unburnt fuel which provides a short to earth bypassing the plug gap. You can burn it off with a cigarette lighter but I would bin the plugs. You may be creating the problem by not getting the plugs hot enough when you kick it over.