Hi all,
On my last ride last year and the first ride after the installation of my Delkavic headers & link pipe and Pipe werx cans I noticed something concerning, At the end of the ride (approx 130 mls) I pulled up in a nice quiet area to get off the bike to admire Her and to have a good listen to the new pipes as had no chance of upsetting neighbours etc.
At first all was good, sounded fine,Revs fine & no smoke but then after it was idling for a little while I started to see lingering plumes of smoke coming from mainly the near side Exhaust can and this progressively got worse!
I stopped several times on the way home as was concerned and it was still doing it. When on power, no smoke but when the revs are dropping it throws out smoke.
My friend following behind said it smelt very rich. I asked a few people on the facebook page and they have said they have changed their pipes with no issues, But unsure if this was just rear cans and not the headers.
I did put the original silencers back on last night and it did not seem half as bad just a puff every now and then and very light. I am really confused now as to what is going on. I will post a link below to show it when I ran it up Yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiTguDFj7Fs
Things done over the winter to the engine so far,
Throttle body sync
Full service inc plugs/air filter *Plugs were fine ie no sooting* But then the exhaust was newly fitted.
Full exhaust fitted.
Bike has 8500 mls and has been very well looked after.
I'd take a guess at valve stem seals. Blue smoke is normally oil & with a closed throttle the intake vacuum is the highest so most likely to draw oil past weak seals.
We've seen a few bikes starting to suffer this, all seem to have been run on fully synth oil. It seems as these bikes are designed for semi-synth they need the mineral part to keep the seals in good conditon.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 08 January 2024, 08:40 PMI'd take a guess at valve stem seals. Blue smoke is normally oil & with a closed throttle the intake vacuum is the highest so most likely to draw oil past weak seals.
We've seen a few bikes starting to suffer this, all seem to have been run on fully synth oil. It seems as these bikes are designed for semi-synth they need the mineral part to keep the seals in good conditon.
Hi Hooli,
That was my first thought also but then a big symptom of that is smoking when cold as the seals may weep over night? This runs fine when cold with no smoke at all but longer it idles the worse it seems to get and would imagine it would still be the same regardless of what exhaust is on the bike as seemed much better with the old exhausts on?
I do need to do more testing but wouldn't hurt to get the seals all done regardless as it's 21 yrs old now I suppose. Do you happen to know the approx cost to have this done ( not via main delaer)
Thanks for your input :)
Kind regards
Lee
Not a clue on getting it done sorry, I never pay a garage for stuff. I know head gaskets aren't cheap though.
I wonder if it's cause the oil is thinner once warm? just a guess, I'd think it'd do it overnight too.
My guess exhaust wise is with bigger bore & less restrictive pipes on the smoke gets out rather than getting caught on the walls.
Before ripping it all apart it might well be worth checking the small round seals around the pairs valves between the head and the rocker cover as if they have gone hard they'll let oil into the valves .
Quote from: seth on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:39 PMBefore ripping it all apart it might well be worth checking the small round seals around the pairs valves between the head and the rocker cover as if they have gone hard they'll let oil into the valves .
Good call. I'd thought there was something about Pairs, but I couldn't remember what.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:57 PMQuote from: seth on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:39 PMBefore ripping it all apart it might well be worth checking the small round seals around the pairs valves between the head and the rocker cover as if they have gone hard they'll let oil into the valves .
Good call. I'd thought there was something about Pairs, but I couldn't remember what.
Folks forget the ages of these bikes now and those seals are never checked I also thing they don't do well I the wrong oil has been used at anytime during the bikes life :cheers: :cheers:
Quote from: seth on Monday, 08 January 2024, 10:05 PMQuote from: Hooli on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:57 PMQuote from: seth on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:39 PMBefore ripping it all apart it might well be worth checking the small round seals around the pairs valves between the head and the rocker cover as if they have gone hard they'll let oil into the valves .
Good call. I'd thought there was something about Pairs, but I couldn't remember what.
Folks forget the ages of these bikes now and those seals are never checked I also thing they don't do well I the wrong oil has been used at anytime during the bikes life :cheers: :cheers:
How do I find these to check them please? Are there any guides available? I just thought the PAIRS systems just to additional air from the air box to the exhaust?
Regards
No 9 on this diagram I think, @seth will confirm
https://www.suzukiparts.co.uk/shop/online-store/suzuki-parts-finder/gsx/gsx1400/k2-k3-k4-k5-k6-k7-2002-2007.htm?vehicle_id=29#!gsx1400cylheadcover
You are right, it just dumps fresh air into the exhaust. But there's a few seals where it goes through the cam cover & cylinder head to do so.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 08 January 2024, 10:33 PMNo 9 on this diagram I think, @seth will confirm
https://www.suzukiparts.co.uk/shop/online-store/suzuki-parts-finder/gsx/gsx1400/k2-k3-k4-k5-k6-k7-2002-2007.htm?vehicle_id=29#!gsx1400cylheadcover
You are right, it just dumps fresh air into the exhaust. But there's a few seals where it goes through the cam cover & cylinder head to do so.
Exactly part number 9
Cheers I have difficulty posting pictures :cheers:
Thanks guys much appreciated :)
So I have just ran out in my break into the Garage and run Her up for approx 15mins with the standard cans on the Delkavic headers and link pipe and zero smoke seen! :confused1:
I really have no idea at this point unless it truly is a fuelling issue as the amount of smoke that comes out of it with the Pipe werx on, it would still show signs if Oil related surely? Even though the colour of the smoke does have a very light blue tinge to it.
Trouble is I am reluctant to spend £430 on a Power commander to check this.
You won't be popular but remove the pipewerx cans and fire up, see if it still looks smokey then. How's your plugs look.
If anything better headers would make it lean rather than rich. So I can't see them being why it's smoking.
Quote from: Phill P on Monday, 08 January 2024, 11:49 PMYou won't be popular but remove the pipewerx cans and fire up, see if it still looks smokey then. How's your plugs look.
I changed the plugs during the service I gave it in December and they looked perfect tbh
Quote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 12:01 AMIf anything better headers would make it lean rather than rich. So I can't see them being why it's smoking.
Totally agree with you Hooli, But then that raises the question that a mate following behind said it smelt very fuel rich? I also noticed something similar when following my friend on his 1250 bandit with a rear can on (no baffle) stock headers, quite a strong smell of fuel albeit without the smoke.
Be worth checking ya TPS maybe? if it's out of adjustment the bike could still be fueling on the overrun. There's a thread on here somewhere for it, it's a simple enough job.
That's the trouble with these older bikes, After 20+ yrs you have no idea how many fingers have been in there tinkering with stuff, Or not tinkering enough in some cases. I have even spoke to a bike mechanic Today over the phone and he is as stumped as me.
As the OEM cans (albeit modified) seem to stop the issue so far for the little testing I have done I tend to be looking more to the fuelling side atm. As I have put a full system on it, looks like I am going to have to suck up the cost on a PC5 and get it dyno tuned correctly to see what is going on with the fuelling.
I only changed the exhaust in the first place as the previous owner crushed Cylinder 3 & 4 headers when dropping off a curb. So the bike is rapidly turning into a money pit. I have spent well over £1K on it since I bought it last Aug. But hey that's my problem. But the thought of spending another £430 + Dyno tuning and it could still be there is not making me fall in love with this bike.
Or I have to buy another 2 downpipes and put the headers back to stock and use the pipe werx cans as will be more restricted with stock headers. but stock downpipes are very expensive.
Oh the Joys :laugh:
I'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Quote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
A thread on here does mention rich running and various things it could be, you definitely need to get it running correctly as a different map may just mask the problem, don't listen to facebook :thumbs_down:
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
While the tops off also check the shims they should be fine but if you get a chance why not check them .
Good luck
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
While the tops off also check the shims they should be fine but if you get a chance why not check them .
Good luck
Quote from: Phill P on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:15 AMA thread on here does mention rich running and various things it could be, you definitely need to get it running correctly as a different map may just mask the problem, don't listen to facebook :thumbs_down:
If its burning a slight bit of oil on the over run it'll smell like it's running rich .
It could be lots of things but I always go for the simple and obvious before going in deeper and normally things are fixed 1st time .
Quote from: seth on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:19 AMQuote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
While the tops off also check the shims they should be fine but if you get a chance why not check them .
Good luck
Quote from: Phill P on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:15 AMA thread on here does mention rich running and various things it could be, you definitely need to get it running correctly as a different map may just mask the problem, don't listen to facebook :thumbs_down:
If its burning a slight bit of oil on the over run it'll smell like it's running rich .
It could be lots of things but I always go for the simple and obvious before going in deeper and normally things are fixed 1st time .
Has anybody you know of had this problem? Are these pairs seals normally a problem, just wondered how you knew about them?
I know of several bikes that have had this problem and its normally if they've used fully synthetic motorcycle oil :cheers:
Mate, id be doing basic checks first, adjust stps, tps, balance bodies. Change the oil.Drain air filter housing. Cannot see how changing exhausts can create your problem.
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 06:39 PMMate, id be doing basic checks first, adjust stps, tps, balance bodies. Change the oil.Drain air filter housing. Cannot see how changing exhausts can create your problem.
Hi, I have done most of that tbh, Well apart from TPS STPS as both of those have been marked up with their position so do not want to move them as bike runs sweet with no hesitation etc and great power right through. I have balanced the throttle bodies and done a full service although was recently done by the previous owner. Looked in the air filter case and squeaky clean, Plugs looked good also.
Also to add guys as not sure If I mentioned it but only really seems to be doing it out of the near side pipe! You do see a little from the Right but think that's just where some is crossing the link pipe.
Have you checked the rubber vac lines to each TB? They perish and upset the balance....but then idle and running could be off, unless the tps and stps are compensating enough, if running rich then the near side plugs would be fouled too.
I dont think a PC5 and dyno tune will resolve it tbh
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
Ouch, that's a new cam cover gasket & so forth too then? I don't think I've ever replaced one, I just smear with a tiny bit of sealant & forget it afterwards. Personally I'd do the same with the PAIRs seals, but then I'm a cheapskate & reuse seals when rebuilding brakes or slave cylinders too.
Hopefully it fixes your issues and as Seth says, check the valve clearances while in there. They'll be fine, I've never known one of these bikes needing them adjusting unless they've had new cams fitted. But it's easy to do so worth it for peace of mind.
Might be nothing, but do you leave the bike on the side stand? I've had several bikes over the years, including my 14, if left on the side stand over a period of time it causes the near side to smoke on start up.
Quote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 08:52 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
Ouch, that's a new cam cover gasket & so forth too then? I don't think I've ever replaced one, I just smear with a tiny bit of sealant & forget it afterwards. Personally I'd do the same with the PAIRs seals, but then I'm a cheapskate & reuse seals when rebuilding brakes or slave cylinders too.
Hopefully it fixes your issues and as Seth says, check the valve clearances while in there. They'll be fine, I've never known one of these bikes needing them adjusting unless they've had new cams fitted. But it's easy to do so worth it for peace of mind.
Yeah afraid so :sad: new Rocker Gasket £48 rocker bolt washers £31 for 8 little bits of rubber ffs and the 4 pairs seals. As it's 20+ yrs old I would imagine the old ones will be pretty rough. Valves should be fine as only done 8k miles and sounds sweet.
I never thought an old Suzuki would cost more to repair than my Ducati, I changed the rocker cover gasket on that and cost half as much lol
Quote from: T250 on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 10:44 PMMight be nothing, but do you leave the bike on the side stand? I've had several bikes over the years, including my 14, if left on the side stand over a period of time it causes the near side to smoke on start up.
Good shout, But sadly this is either on centre stand or side and even after a 2 hr blast. As seen in the youtube video link, That was on the centre stand and fully hot. Doesn't smoke at all when cold.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 10:47 PMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 08:52 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
Ouch, that's a new cam cover gasket & so forth too then? I don't think I've ever replaced one, I just smear with a tiny bit of sealant & forget it afterwards. Personally I'd do the same with the PAIRs seals, but then I'm a cheapskate & reuse seals when rebuilding brakes or slave cylinders too.
Hopefully it fixes your issues and as Seth says, check the valve clearances while in there. They'll be fine, I've never known one of these bikes needing them adjusting unless they've had new cams fitted. But it's easy to do so worth it for peace of mind.
Yeah afraid so :sad: new Rocker Gasket £48 rocker bolt washers £31 for 8 little bits of rubber ffs and the 4 pairs seals. As it's 20+ yrs old I would imagine the old ones will be pretty rough. Valves should be fine as only done 8k miles and sounds sweet.
I never thought an old Suzuki would cost more to repair than my Ducati, I changed the rocker cover gasket on that and cost half as much lol
When you do it, careful of those eight bolts holding the cam cover on. They are easy to strip the holes in the cam carriers they bolt into. I double check they are clean before starting them in the thread.
From memory they are M7x1.0 which I found out after having to put thread inserts in three of mine.
Hi,
Well the update so far, took it for a good blast yesterday and rides beautifully. Pulls all the way to redline etc stopped several times and checked for smoke and there was none.
Let the bike sit idling for some time and actually see the fan come on lol thought it was a fake 😅
After idling for some time and revving, the smoke started to return. I smelt it and smelt very fuel rich.
Today I thought I would check the sensors. EOT sensor I couldn't really check as had the tank off etc so couldn't run the bike to check oil temp. Air temp sensor was working fine. I checked the tps and was reading 1400 ohms and not 1100. I take it this would also make it run slightly rich if it thinks the valves are more open than they are? The stps was also reading 1000 ohms and not 800.
I could not adjust just yet as do not have the right tool.
What's people's take on this?
Cheers
Setting the tps &stpa are always a good thing .
I'd still also go with my first thoughts of a leaking pairs seal as the smoke comes when the motor is hot(oil thinner) or a valve stem seal I'd still pop off the pairs covers and have a look in (remover the reed valve holders) as it's a quick way to see if the problem is there (any wetness or oil shouldn't be in there)
Good luck :cheers:
Quote from: seth on Monday, 15 January 2024, 02:58 AMSetting the tps &stpa are always a good thing .
I'd still also go with my first thoughts of a leaking pairs seal as the smoke comes when the motor is hot(oil thinner) or a valve stem seal I'd still pop off the pairs covers and have a look in (remover the reed valve holders) as it's a quick way to see if the problem is there (any wetness or oil shouldn't be in there)
Good luck :cheers:
Will do, will I need pairs gaskets as well mate?
Shouldnt need new gaskets for the PAIRS covers.
Blue smoke is oil, so you have oil leaking into a hot exhaust somewhere.
Good tip on the PAIRS reed valves. Is your PAIRS still connected, or has it been blanked off like most do? Id be checking the seala from them down to the exhaust, as Hooli said, these motors rarely need valve clearances checked and or valve stem seals done.
If you have a multimeter to check the TPS and STPS, all you need to adjust is the correct Torx to undo the screws that hold them in. Check out the manual for setting the TPS, pretty easy, just need to make sure idle is set at 1100rpm, then set the TPS to 1100 Ohm to match by adjusting the sensor position relative to its mount. The eyelets in the sensor are slotted to suit.
The upper value doesnt matter too much, its the at-idle value thats important
One other comment on setting the TPS. Balance the throttles first, as that affects the reading because the sensor is using no1 TB to know the position of no3 TB (which is the one the cables are connected too).
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 15 January 2024, 06:32 PMOne other comment on setting the TPS. Balance the throttles first, as that affects the reading because the sensor is using no1 TB to know the position of no3 TB (which is the one the cables are connected too).
Hi,
Thanks for the info, I have balanced the throttle bodies a month ago and got all the parts to carry out the pairs seal replacement. (Hopefully easy to find once cover is off)
The sensors are both out a bit and idle is at 1100 so once to security hex turns up I will adjust those to spec. :-)
*edit the pairs system is still connected
Ahh you should be fine then.
I always mention it as I've known people do it the wrong way round & end up with a bike running worse than they started with.
A tip then if PAIRS is still hooked up is to remove the diaphragm valve (under the tank) and hoses to the PAIRS valves and blank off the outlet from each PAIRS valve on the rocker cover. I just used a short bit of rubber vac hose zip tied onto the PAIRS cover outlet, doubled back on itself and the end crimped by a zip tie. A blanking kit makes it look better but does the same. The tank hides the covers mostly.
Theres a sticky on here detailing more on deleting the PAIRS.
Once youve disconnected PAIRS, check for smoke from the exhaust, if still there then its the PAIRS seals through the head, valve stem seals or piston rings (in descending order of likelihood).
You also mentioned a rich fuel smell, I reckon thats related to the TPS setting and unrelated to the (blue) smoke issue. Correcting the tps will make the throttle smoother and improve fuel economy in my view
One more questions guys,
Is there anything I should be aware of when removing the rocker cover? ie pipes, gaskets anything under it that may come loose etc? Thanks
Nope just taken it easy with the rocker gasket and reseal the half moons when refitting it .
I replied to your pm and sent an email to you .
:cheers:
Quote from: seth on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 12:06 AMNope just taken it easy with the rocker gasket and reseal the half moons when refitting it .
I replied to your pm and sent an email to you .
:cheers:
Seen that Seth, Much appreciated :grin: :cheers:
Quote from: Xdiavel on Monday, 15 January 2024, 09:48 PMOne more questions guys,
Is there anything I should be aware of when removing the rocker cover? ie pipes, gaskets anything under it that may come loose etc? Thanks
Beware of the dowel pins.
Quote from: Andre on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 02:43 AMQuote from: Xdiavel on Monday, 15 January 2024, 09:48 PMOne more questions guys,
Is there anything I should be aware of when removing the rocker cover? ie pipes, gaskets anything under it that may come loose etc? Thanks
Beware of the dowel pins.
Are they what the seals sit on?
On a plus note, All sensors now back in spec :grin:
Also removed the pairs cover and lovely and clean in there.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 04:19 AMQuote from: Andre on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 02:43 AMQuote from: Xdiavel on Monday, 15 January 2024, 09:48 PMOne more questions guys,
Is there anything I should be aware of when removing the rocker cover? ie pipes, gaskets anything under it that may come loose etc? Thanks
Beware of the dowel pins.
Are they what the seals sit on?
Screenshot from 2024-01-15 20-22-57.png
I remember some guy dropped one into the engine. I lift the cover a little bit to see if they sit in the cover (will be fine if they all sit in their place in the head. If any sits in the cover, I would insert some carton between the cover and the head so it doesn't drop down the cam chain "shaft".
I've never known one move, but that's a good point.
I only know of the one case. Mine were where they belonged. But better safe than sorry.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 04:22 AMOn a plus note, All sensors now back in spec :grin:
Also removed the pairs cover and lovely and clean in there.
I was hoping you'd find something hopefully the sensors being back in spec help .
Only other thing was when hooli had an engine temp sensor go out do the bike thought it was always below freezing but he'll hopefully explain that better .
Good luck
Bike is smoking, oil burn obviously. Im a bit lost, what is achieved by removing valve cover?
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 07:29 PMBike is smoking, oil burn obviously. Im a bit lost, what is achieved by removing valve cover?
The PAIRs seals Barmy mentioned as a possible cause are under the cam cover.
Quote from: seth on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 07:13 PMOnly other thing was when hooli gad an engine temp sensor go out do the bike thought it was always below freezing but he'll hopefully explain that better .
Good luck
I can't see it being that, it didn't cause smoking. Just at 24mpg fuel drinking habit.
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 07:29 PMBike is smoking, oil burn obviously. Im a bit lost, what is achieved by removing valve cover?
It's the first quick and least invasive way to check if any oil is getting past the seals into the valves .
If that's all good the next steps are head off and check the valve stem seals and valve seats and then if they are OK the piston rings sealing properly .
We have all read the nightmares that taking the head off can give (broken exhaust bolts being the worst)
:cheers:
Checked the air box for oil?
Sure hope those seals are your problem.
Quote from: Andre on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 10:33 PMChecked the air box for oil?
Yes mate, The air box is spotless as is the reed valves etc.
I will be doing the seals this weekend hopefully, So can fire it up and check that the sensor moves hasn't knocked too much out. Cannot start it yet as got the bike in bits and tank off etc ready for the weekend.
Also got the rear brake lever off too atm as it's sticking. And now noticed the front fork seal leaking. For such a low mls bike and how clean it was I am just finding one thing after another atm and feel I have been taken for a ride pardon the pun for what I paid for it!!
But I suppose it will all be done for the new season and want for nothing. If the pairs seals do not fix it then I will forget about it for the time being as the valve stem seals will cost a small fortune.
Have you checked oil level? Sometimes an overfilled engine will smoke
Typical low mileage bike tbh. Everything has gone hard & fails when subjected to use. My 14 was the same when I got it at 7 years old & just 7.5k on it.
If you take the forks out & do the seals, I'd drop the yokes too. Suzuki factory workers appear to be allergic to grease so a repacking will help. That's if the bottom one isn't rusty from condensation inside the frame. Talking of which, if you're feeling brave the swingarm bearings will probably need wiping clean & more grease too. The LH one always gets rust coloured discolouration in the grease from the condensation running to the side when the bike is on the side stand. While the swingarm is out, grease the shock pivots top & bottom....
That should keep you busy till it's warm enough to enjoy riding.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Wednesday, 17 January 2024, 07:59 PMFor such a low mls bike and how clean it was I am just finding one thing after another atm and feel I have been taken for a ride pardon the pun for what I paid for it!!
Common erroneous assumption that (Old!) low mileage bikes have fewer problems than their higher mileage compatriots. Sitting around too much is not only detrimental to human health, but also to bikes (etc.). Leaky SEALS are a very common problem in very low mileage oldies.
EDIT: The gunk mineral oil leaves behind helps to seal the seals. Synthetic oil cleans all the gunk out; that's the crux when changing from mineral to synthetic. It gets rid of the plugs that keeps the leaks at bay. The loosened gunk , when getting between the clutch plates, makes the clutch slip.
Also don't use any engine oil cleaner! I would never use that anyhow in a 14. Full synthetic oil is a much better, howbeit more expensive, choice to have a clean the engine.
I suggest to only use mineral oil in your engine. NO hydro-crack or synthetic. That's from a guy that only runs true fully synthetic in his 14 :facepalm:
Quote from: Andre on Wednesday, 17 January 2024, 08:51 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Wednesday, 17 January 2024, 07:59 PMFor such a low mls bike and how clean it was I am just finding one thing after another atm and feel I have been taken for a ride pardon the pun for what I paid for it!!
Common erroneous assumption that (Old!) low mileage bikes have fewer problems than their higher mileage compatriots. Sitting around too much is not only detrimental to human health, but also to bikes (etc.). Leaky SEALS are a very common problem in very low mileage oldies.
EDIT: The gunk mineral oil leaves behind helps to seal the seals. Synthetic oil cleans all the gunk out; that's the crux when changing from mineral to synthetic. It gets rid of the plugs that keeps the leaks at bay. The loosened gunk , when getting between the clutch plates, makes the clutch slip.
Also don't use any engine oil cleaner! I would never use that anyhow in a 14. Full synthetic oil is a much better, howbeit more expensive, choice to have a clean the engine.
I suggest to only use mineral oil in your engine. NO hydro-crack or synthetic. That's from a guy that only runs true fully synthetic in his 14 :facepalm:
I gave this a full service a month or so ago and used Semi synthetic so all should be good there but as you say I have no idea what previous owners had done to it.
So far I have fitted a full exhaust system, LED bulb change, Polished both engine cases and front forks, Changed rear light, Balanced the throttle bodies, Full service with plugs, polished headlight brackets, Painted the centre stand and side stand, Changed clocks to custom gear change and new surround. Renthol bars. And all this since November lol I have lived in the garage! and now finding this smoke issue/fork issue/Brake issue is to say the least getting right on my last nerve. I had 04/05 R1/Fireblades and never had one issue.
I have enjoyed most of it but this smoke issue could brake me lol I just prey that these seals work.
Re fork seals, i can recommend genuine ones. I had one set of All Balls Racing that failed again in about 6 months after putting them in. Cheaper aint better
Diavel, would be testing me out. Mines always been the opposite, so good. I once had a Norton Commando, classic bikes they say. Mine was classic crap, every time i fixed something it raised more probs. My worst bike by miles.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Thursday, 18 January 2024, 09:24 AMRe fork seals, i can recommend genuine ones. I had one set of All Balls Racing that failed again in about 6 months after putting them in. Cheaper aint better
I've never had any make of fork seals except genuine last in these bikes.
Suzuki OEM are NOK brand. Sometimes 1/2 the price. But yeah, waste of time fitting others.
Think I am just annoyed really as got it looking close to brand new since winter started and then find more :rolleyes:
I think once this weekends work is done ie the seals, Rear brake and put back together I will feel better about it. That will just leave the fork seals to do which I have lined up with a mate as he has done a lot on Bandits.
I took it for a test ride last weekend to check if it is still smoking and must say it still shocks me how smooth She is :smile2: My other bike is an x-diavel 1262 L-twin and that feels like a shaking tractor compared to the GSX.
Quote from: grog on Thursday, 18 January 2024, 06:59 PMSuzuki OEM are NOK brand. Sometimes 1/2 the price. But yeah, waste of time fitting others.
Handy to know, thanks.
I've just done a set of forks for a friend (new bushes and oil) he also wanted fork seals but the parten ones that came with the kit only had a single seal fork seal unlike the double seal on suzuki ones (refitted his original seals as nothing wrong with them) pyramid parts kit .
Well, terrible weekend, yes I lost a dowel pin and thought it dropped Into the cylinder :rolleyes: but had to buy a borescope and found it in an oil chamber deep down and grabbed it with a magnet thank god!
The other bad part is all 4 pistons are wet on top especially by the indents on the pistons that look like holes. I have not yet changed the seals so not sure if still the same after, very nervous now. How do I upload pictures please. Normally it's just an attachment but this seems a bit overly complicated. Spark plugs are fine and not wet.
*edit looking more closely the oil pools are at the indent side which is the valve side, so could potentially tie in with where these pairs egress over the exhaust valves.
Probably needs an Italian Tune Up, go give her a damn good workout n see how she is after that.
Well I think now the oil pooling by the exhaust valves on the pistons is more likely because the bike is on its stand so nose down come to think of it.
https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/1/4131-220124063624.jpeg[/img]](https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/1/4131-220124063624.jpeg) (http://[img)
As you can see there looks to be Oil pooling by the indent that looks like a hole, So there is defo an oil issue. Been had with this bike I feel. But wont let it beat me :angry:
https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/1/4131-220124221415.jpeg[/img]](https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/1/4131-220124221415.jpeg) (http://[img)
Well if the PAIRs seals are leaking into the ports, then oil will run into the combustion chamber when parked for any cylinder where the exhaust valves aren't closed.
As hooli said about the seals
It can only be them or the valvestem seals .
If it was rings the piston tops would be all burnt .
Is it just 1 piston ,1 pair (1-2,3-4) or all 4 pisons ?
The pistons look too clean for it to be a massive motor problem .
Hate to jinx you as with the dowel pin.
I assume you have been able to check the PAIR seals and that they are OK. Right?
If so, I would do a leak test. That should help finding any leaks location. I bet valve stem seals gone; but more is possible. As said previously: seals are fairly common issue on very low-mileage old bikes.
BTW, changing the valve-stem seals can be done without removing the head:
I've seen that before Andre looks a much better way to change valvestem seals than stripping the top end (along with all the known risks that go with that)
:cheers:
Quote from: seth on Monday, 22 January 2024, 10:59 PMAs hooli said about the seals
It can only be them or the valvestem seals .
If it was rings the piston tops would be all burnt .
Is it just 1 piston ,1 pair (1-2,3-4) or all 4 pisons ?
The pistons look too clean for it to be a massive motor problem .
Hi,
They're wet across all 4 pistons sadly. My only thought to not think it's the PAIRs seals is that they sit higher up ie out of the oil when the bike is off where the valve stem seals are lower down and probably sit in a lot more oil to be able to leak through?
I understand I suppose that when on engine over run it can pull a bit of oil through the seals then when sat it drips down the outlet.
Never done valve stem seals before so hoping it's not those as will have to do the timing also ie make sure the Cam gears are spot on etc but cannot justify spending any more on it at this time to get a shop to do it. :bugga:
Quote from: Andre on Monday, 22 January 2024, 11:44 PMHate to jinx you as with the dowel pin.
I assume you have been able to check the PAIR seals and that they are OK. Right?
If so, I would do a leak test. That should help finding any leaks location. I bet valve stem seals gone; but more is possible. As said previously: seals are fairly common issue on very low-mileage old bikes.
BTW, changing the valve-stem seals can be done without removing the head:
I have seen a couple of methods using string and bringing the pistons up to TDC so the valves do not drop etc. Will have a look at that Vid in a mo
Quote from: Xdiavel on Monday, 22 January 2024, 11:56 PMMy only thought to not think it's the PAIRs seals is that they sit higher up ie out of the oil when the bike is off where the valve stem seals are lower down and probably sit in a lot more oil to be able to leak through?
Correct.
Getting the marks right is straightforward you just need to check and recheck but it's fairly easy.
If you could get the valvestem seals replaced without out removing the head (as per Andre's suggestion) that would be a massive bonus and save loads if cash in the process.
As before I wish you good luck .
Shame your not closer .
Quote from: seth on Tuesday, 23 January 2024, 01:09 AMGetting the marks right is straightforward you just need to check and recheck but it's fairly easy.
If you could get the valvestem seals replaced without out removing the head (as per Andre's suggestion) that would be a massive bonus and save loads if cash in the process.
As before I wish you good luck .
Shame your not closer .
Cheers Seth,
There are quite a few video's where you put thick string in the bore through the spark plug hole and leave some hanging out and raise to TDC which pushes against the valves and holds them in place while you do each set of 4 so no head removal needed. I do not have an air compressor or tools so unable to pressurise the bores.
Will still try to stay optimistic on the pairs seals lol
The thick string trick sounded good to me. But then I found this comment (pinned by the author) on the 1st video that came up in the search:
Quote!!!WARNING!!! After watching your video I decided to use the 'Rope' as opposed to 'Air'. On BMW S63 engine I stuffed cylinder 1 with nylon rope, turn crank until it stopped, removed valve springs. I turned the crank counter-clockwise slightly to release top of cylinder from compressing rope. When attempting to remove rope it would not come out. After using my bore scope to view inside the cylinder, it had somehow developed a knot. At this moment the nylon rope is stuck in the cylinder and will not come out, no matter how much pulling force is applied. I picked at it for 4 hours to try to undo know, impossible. I am now in the process of removing the head to get the rope out, which includes removing turbos, all associated coolant and oil lines, then the exhaust manifold. What a mess!!! DO NOT RISK IT!!!
There is another method (also by the author of the first, which I definitely would not dare to try:
Compressors can be borrowed or rented!
Diavel, ive done cars using compressed air. All have went well. Doing 14, lot smaller, less free space, fiddly job id reckon. Totally possible. As you do each cylinder,make sure motor is locked up, in gear, you dont want it to turn. A perfect to use spring compressor will be important. Best of luck Mate.
Same here, have done cars this way. Put the cylinder youre working on at tdc, this way much less chance of the collet and or valve dropping away
Decades ago there was even a special tool for Ford CVH engines that replaced the rocker to do stem seals this way. We all put RS Turbo ones on as they didn't ride up the stem as soon as you started the engine.
Thinking about it, I've still got that tool somewhere.
Well finally got it back together and sadly it is still doing it :-(
So sadly looks like it's all got to come apart again and torn down for the stem seals.
Not a happy bunny atm but was worth a try
Not what you wanted Mate. Would piss me right off. I really doubted the pairs seals.Did it smoke b4 you changed oil? Maybe try diff brand.Big/ expensive job head off. Hire compressor, buy spring tool, have a go with head on. Theres a product Forte seal conditioner, gets good reviews, not sure how it goes with clutch.
Quote from: grog on Sunday, 28 January 2024, 05:58 PMNot what you wanted Mate. Would piss me right off. I really doubted the pairs seals.Did it smoke b4 you changed oil? Maybe try diff brand.Big/ expensive job head off. Hire compressor, buy spring tool, have a go with head on. Theres a product Forte seal conditioner, gets good reviews, not sure how it goes with clutch.
If you change the oil and give it a try .
Just remember to also empty the oil cooler and remove as much of the current oil as possible. Before refilling
Good luck buddy sounds more and more of a nightmare but I'm thinking of the easy/cheaper things to try before getting into the motor .
If you can change. The valvestem seals without taking the head off that will be a bonus .
Thanks lads,
My friend has an air compressor and big double garage albeit filled with bikes lol so will have some space. I have ordered the seals at £78 for 17 -one spare for my shat luck, and going to buy the seal tool kit which included the air line etc for £28 + some Moly.
I can get the rocker cover off in around 40mins taking my time I feel, and should be able to get the cams etc out in another 30mins.
So famous last words, I hope to have it all done in a day.
Somebody will get a hell of a bike when I come to sell this lol
Spoke to a garage and got quoted £800 and would remove the head. So it's really worth having a go yourself.
I used to change these seals and lap valves on old single cylinder Generators 20yrs ago so pretty similar but may just be very awkward to get to some while still in the bike.
Best luck Mate, great attitude. 👏👍
Well finally gave this a go Yesterday between two of us. We started at approx 9am and took a fair few coffee breaks,albeit very short and finished at 8pm, the Two cylinders beneath the frame were the time consumers and the collets.
But considering we did this with the head in situ and a first attempt I thought that wasn't too shabby. It has now lost it's slight missfire on idle which is good,prob due to burning oil too lol so sounds to be running a lot better atm I run it up for some time today in the garage and so far no smoke :-) but not counting my chickens just yet without a fall ride out test when the weather clears up.
I did stick the bore scope back down and the piston crown is still looking a bit wet which I am not happy about but not seeing a collection of oil built up on the piston like before but will check again in a few days to see if there has been any weeping. Fingers crossed it will be ok.
but thankfully that job is now done and £800 saved.
Top job Mate. What tools you used etc would be a good post👍
Quote from: grog on Monday, 19 February 2024, 06:04 PMTop job Mate. What tools you used etc would be a good post👍
Hi Mate,
Thanks, I really do hope this has sorted it now, the bike is running nice though now so has made a difference. Makes you wonder how many others are suffering from similar as only noticed on this when idling for some time and a camera thrown down it's neck :laugh:
The main tool used was off ebay for £35 and cannot see how you could do it without it tbh so I was very glad I stumbled across it. It's called (Cylinder Head Valve Spring Compressor Stem Seal Installer Tool Kit UK)
Tool of the day was a Flexible Magnetic pick up tool with 500mm Flexible Gooseneck with 6mm wide magnet end. Amazon £5.49
You will also need ( which was another lucky find ) Draper 10mm 12mm Adaptor for Compression Tester. (£6.99 EBAY) This is for the end of the air line to fit the diameter of the spark plug hole.
I did replace all Gaskets which wasn't too cheap but I could have got away the old ones but as they're all 21yrs old now, Then Why not.
Most of the knowledge is in the manual where it shows you how to re-do the timing etc we put a long screwdriver down each plug hole and brought each piston up to TDC so it covers your arse if the valve drops as it wont disappear into the cylinder. Best bit of advice I can give is fill each oil drain hole/Cam chain holes with rags as it really did save my arse on several occasions where a collet would ping off somewhere or drop of the screwdriver.
We was short on time as only had the day to get it done but if you could span it over a couple of days it wouldn't be too bad.
It IS a Two person job though.
Hi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Do a compression test. I'd be suspecting piston rings are worn.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 08:10 AMHi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Other ideas
I do remember someone having a problem similar to this and it was the seals around the pairs tunnel letting small amounts of oil into the valves.
This was caused by using the wrong oil (they'd usef fully synthetic motorcycle oil and it damaged the seals)
There are 2 small o'rings easy replaced between the rockercover and the head .
I used to have pictures but can't get my phone to work
Changing these seals takes 5 mins if you have the top off.
Quote from: seth on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:15 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 08:10 AMHi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Other ideas
I do remember someone having a problem similar to this and it was the seals around the pairs tunnel letting small amounts of oil into the valves.
This was caused by using the wrong oil (they'd usef fully synthetic motorcycle oil and it damaged the seals)
There are 2 small o'rings easy replaced between the rockercover and the head .
I used to have pictures but can't get my phone to work
Changing these seals takes 5 mins if you have the top off.
Hi Seth,
Thanks for replying, Sadly I have replaced these when I did the valve stem seals. So it isn't those.
I'm beginning to think the worst and the rings, But cannot believe the rings are gone at 9k mls unless the oil rings are stuck where it's been sitting for yrs.
But inside the bores are like new and the piston crown, albeit a bit wet. 😞
Is it possible your oil level too high ?
Crankcase vent blocked? that can force oil past the rings.
I'd be amazed if the rings had gone at 9k.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:29 PMQuote from: seth on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:15 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 08:10 AMHi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Other ideas
I do remember someone having a problem similar to this and it was the seals around the pairs tunnel letting small amounts of oil into the valves.
This was caused by using the wrong oil (they'd usef fully synthetic motorcycle oil and it damaged the seals)
There are 2 small o'rings easy replaced between the rockercover and the head .
I used to have pictures but can't get my phone to work
Changing these seals takes 5 mins if you have the top off.
Hi Seth,
Thanks for replying, Sadly I have replaced these when I did the valve stem seals. So it isn't those.
I'm beginning to think the worst and the rings, But cannot believe the rings are gone at 9k mls unless the oil rings are stuck where it's been sitting for yrs.
But inside the bores are like new and the piston crown, albeit a bit wet. 😞
Quote from: seth on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:15 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 08:10 AMHi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Other ideas
I do remember someone having a problem similar to this and it was the seals around the pairs tunnel letting small amounts of oil into the valves.
This was caused by using the wrong oil (they'd usef fully synthetic motorcycle oil and it damaged the seals)
There are 2 small o'rings easy replaced between the rockercover and the head .
I used to have pictures but can't get my phone to work
Changing these seals takes 5 mins if you have the top off.
That's very low mileage for that kind if problem but least your going through things methodically and that's all you can do really
Wish you all the best with it
No idea if im correct but same symptoms.Back in 70s, first Z1 Kawas, Nissans at dealership where i worked, they blew blue smoke. It was due to rings not seating with cylinder walls. Brand new machines, started numerous time showrooms etc, never warmed up or used reasonably hard, that is no pressure on rings, they need pressure to bed to cylinder walls.Glazed bores they call it. Kawa answer was they supplied a kit to pull motor down, rehone cylinders,no new rings fitted. Nissan answer, they supplied an abrasive powder, rev motor, let it suck in thru carby, take for a 10k hard run, change engine oil. It worked 75%.After this long post, im thinking you have glazed bores.Must be a deglazing product you can try. Ill see what i can find.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:29 PMBut inside the bores are like new and the piston crown, albeit a bit wet. 😞
"Bores are like new" - I assume that includes the proper honing-marks. So no glazing!?
Interesting Grog, many years ago Mitsubishi dealer we did work for had a couple of new cars stolen off the yard. They got a Tredia back and a Cordia Turbo got written off. The dealer told us the Tredia was the best one they had driven and used it as their demo car. From stone cold and thrashed.
Bores like new Andre, doesnt mean rings have bedded. Im not sure im on right track but looks similar story to me.Look up Maxodyne decarboniser. I cant get link to work.
Quote from: grog on Monday, 26 May 2025, 06:22 PMMaxodyne decarboniser. I cant get link to work.
https://maxodyne.com/product/ftc-decarbonizer/ (https://maxodyne.com/product/ftc-decarbonizer/)
Quote from: Andre on Monday, 26 May 2025, 07:08 PMQuote from: grog on Monday, 26 May 2025, 06:22 PMMaxodyne decarboniser. I cant get link to work.
https://maxodyne.com/product/ftc-decarbonizer/ (https://maxodyne.com/product/ftc-decarbonizer/)
Nice suggestion, looks great stuff. :clapping: :onya:
Can you use that on ceramic bores? I know you can't hone them as it takes the coating off.
Not sure Hooli. Maybe before he buys, send them an email
Aye be worth checking I'd say or it could cause more issues.
I'd still suspect something outside the bore/cylinder though. Normally if it's rings etc you'd see a difference across the pistons where one has failed & the others are ok, that's not been mentioned. So I'm thinking it's external to the cylinders & affecting the whole engine.