Hi all,
On my last ride last year and the first ride after the installation of my Delkavic headers & link pipe and Pipe werx cans I noticed something concerning, At the end of the ride (approx 130 mls) I pulled up in a nice quiet area to get off the bike to admire Her and to have a good listen to the new pipes as had no chance of upsetting neighbours etc.
At first all was good, sounded fine,Revs fine & no smoke but then after it was idling for a little while I started to see lingering plumes of smoke coming from mainly the near side Exhaust can and this progressively got worse!
I stopped several times on the way home as was concerned and it was still doing it. When on power, no smoke but when the revs are dropping it throws out smoke.
My friend following behind said it smelt very rich. I asked a few people on the facebook page and they have said they have changed their pipes with no issues, But unsure if this was just rear cans and not the headers.
I did put the original silencers back on last night and it did not seem half as bad just a puff every now and then and very light. I am really confused now as to what is going on. I will post a link below to show it when I ran it up Yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiTguDFj7Fs
Things done over the winter to the engine so far,
Throttle body sync
Full service inc plugs/air filter *Plugs were fine ie no sooting* But then the exhaust was newly fitted.
Full exhaust fitted.
Bike has 8500 mls and has been very well looked after.
I'd take a guess at valve stem seals. Blue smoke is normally oil & with a closed throttle the intake vacuum is the highest so most likely to draw oil past weak seals.
We've seen a few bikes starting to suffer this, all seem to have been run on fully synth oil. It seems as these bikes are designed for semi-synth they need the mineral part to keep the seals in good conditon.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 08 January 2024, 08:40 PMI'd take a guess at valve stem seals. Blue smoke is normally oil & with a closed throttle the intake vacuum is the highest so most likely to draw oil past weak seals.
We've seen a few bikes starting to suffer this, all seem to have been run on fully synth oil. It seems as these bikes are designed for semi-synth they need the mineral part to keep the seals in good conditon.
Hi Hooli,
That was my first thought also but then a big symptom of that is smoking when cold as the seals may weep over night? This runs fine when cold with no smoke at all but longer it idles the worse it seems to get and would imagine it would still be the same regardless of what exhaust is on the bike as seemed much better with the old exhausts on?
I do need to do more testing but wouldn't hurt to get the seals all done regardless as it's 21 yrs old now I suppose. Do you happen to know the approx cost to have this done ( not via main delaer)
Thanks for your input :)
Kind regards
Lee
Not a clue on getting it done sorry, I never pay a garage for stuff. I know head gaskets aren't cheap though.
I wonder if it's cause the oil is thinner once warm? just a guess, I'd think it'd do it overnight too.
My guess exhaust wise is with bigger bore & less restrictive pipes on the smoke gets out rather than getting caught on the walls.
Before ripping it all apart it might well be worth checking the small round seals around the pairs valves between the head and the rocker cover as if they have gone hard they'll let oil into the valves .
Quote from: seth on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:39 PMBefore ripping it all apart it might well be worth checking the small round seals around the pairs valves between the head and the rocker cover as if they have gone hard they'll let oil into the valves .
Good call. I'd thought there was something about Pairs, but I couldn't remember what.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:57 PMQuote from: seth on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:39 PMBefore ripping it all apart it might well be worth checking the small round seals around the pairs valves between the head and the rocker cover as if they have gone hard they'll let oil into the valves .
Good call. I'd thought there was something about Pairs, but I couldn't remember what.
Folks forget the ages of these bikes now and those seals are never checked I also thing they don't do well I the wrong oil has been used at anytime during the bikes life :cheers: :cheers:
Quote from: seth on Monday, 08 January 2024, 10:05 PMQuote from: Hooli on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:57 PMQuote from: seth on Monday, 08 January 2024, 09:39 PMBefore ripping it all apart it might well be worth checking the small round seals around the pairs valves between the head and the rocker cover as if they have gone hard they'll let oil into the valves .
Good call. I'd thought there was something about Pairs, but I couldn't remember what.
Folks forget the ages of these bikes now and those seals are never checked I also thing they don't do well I the wrong oil has been used at anytime during the bikes life :cheers: :cheers:
How do I find these to check them please? Are there any guides available? I just thought the PAIRS systems just to additional air from the air box to the exhaust?
Regards
No 9 on this diagram I think, @seth will confirm
https://www.suzukiparts.co.uk/shop/online-store/suzuki-parts-finder/gsx/gsx1400/k2-k3-k4-k5-k6-k7-2002-2007.htm?vehicle_id=29#!gsx1400cylheadcover
You are right, it just dumps fresh air into the exhaust. But there's a few seals where it goes through the cam cover & cylinder head to do so.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 08 January 2024, 10:33 PMNo 9 on this diagram I think, @seth will confirm
https://www.suzukiparts.co.uk/shop/online-store/suzuki-parts-finder/gsx/gsx1400/k2-k3-k4-k5-k6-k7-2002-2007.htm?vehicle_id=29#!gsx1400cylheadcover
You are right, it just dumps fresh air into the exhaust. But there's a few seals where it goes through the cam cover & cylinder head to do so.
Exactly part number 9
Cheers I have difficulty posting pictures :cheers:
Thanks guys much appreciated :)
So I have just ran out in my break into the Garage and run Her up for approx 15mins with the standard cans on the Delkavic headers and link pipe and zero smoke seen! :confused1:
I really have no idea at this point unless it truly is a fuelling issue as the amount of smoke that comes out of it with the Pipe werx on, it would still show signs if Oil related surely? Even though the colour of the smoke does have a very light blue tinge to it.
Trouble is I am reluctant to spend £430 on a Power commander to check this.
You won't be popular but remove the pipewerx cans and fire up, see if it still looks smokey then. How's your plugs look.
If anything better headers would make it lean rather than rich. So I can't see them being why it's smoking.
Quote from: Phill P on Monday, 08 January 2024, 11:49 PMYou won't be popular but remove the pipewerx cans and fire up, see if it still looks smokey then. How's your plugs look.
I changed the plugs during the service I gave it in December and they looked perfect tbh
Quote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 12:01 AMIf anything better headers would make it lean rather than rich. So I can't see them being why it's smoking.
Totally agree with you Hooli, But then that raises the question that a mate following behind said it smelt very fuel rich? I also noticed something similar when following my friend on his 1250 bandit with a rear can on (no baffle) stock headers, quite a strong smell of fuel albeit without the smoke.
Be worth checking ya TPS maybe? if it's out of adjustment the bike could still be fueling on the overrun. There's a thread on here somewhere for it, it's a simple enough job.
That's the trouble with these older bikes, After 20+ yrs you have no idea how many fingers have been in there tinkering with stuff, Or not tinkering enough in some cases. I have even spoke to a bike mechanic Today over the phone and he is as stumped as me.
As the OEM cans (albeit modified) seem to stop the issue so far for the little testing I have done I tend to be looking more to the fuelling side atm. As I have put a full system on it, looks like I am going to have to suck up the cost on a PC5 and get it dyno tuned correctly to see what is going on with the fuelling.
I only changed the exhaust in the first place as the previous owner crushed Cylinder 3 & 4 headers when dropping off a curb. So the bike is rapidly turning into a money pit. I have spent well over £1K on it since I bought it last Aug. But hey that's my problem. But the thought of spending another £430 + Dyno tuning and it could still be there is not making me fall in love with this bike.
Or I have to buy another 2 downpipes and put the headers back to stock and use the pipe werx cans as will be more restricted with stock headers. but stock downpipes are very expensive.
Oh the Joys :laugh:
I'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Quote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
A thread on here does mention rich running and various things it could be, you definitely need to get it running correctly as a different map may just mask the problem, don't listen to facebook :thumbs_down:
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
While the tops off also check the shims they should be fine but if you get a chance why not check them .
Good luck
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
While the tops off also check the shims they should be fine but if you get a chance why not check them .
Good luck
Quote from: Phill P on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:15 AMA thread on here does mention rich running and various things it could be, you definitely need to get it running correctly as a different map may just mask the problem, don't listen to facebook :thumbs_down:
If its burning a slight bit of oil on the over run it'll smell like it's running rich .
It could be lots of things but I always go for the simple and obvious before going in deeper and normally things are fixed 1st time .
Quote from: seth on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:19 AMQuote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
While the tops off also check the shims they should be fine but if you get a chance why not check them .
Good luck
Quote from: Phill P on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:15 AMA thread on here does mention rich running and various things it could be, you definitely need to get it running correctly as a different map may just mask the problem, don't listen to facebook :thumbs_down:
If its burning a slight bit of oil on the over run it'll smell like it's running rich .
It could be lots of things but I always go for the simple and obvious before going in deeper and normally things are fixed 1st time .
Has anybody you know of had this problem? Are these pairs seals normally a problem, just wondered how you knew about them?
I know of several bikes that have had this problem and its normally if they've used fully synthetic motorcycle oil :cheers:
Mate, id be doing basic checks first, adjust stps, tps, balance bodies. Change the oil.Drain air filter housing. Cannot see how changing exhausts can create your problem.
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 06:39 PMMate, id be doing basic checks first, adjust stps, tps, balance bodies. Change the oil.Drain air filter housing. Cannot see how changing exhausts can create your problem.
Hi, I have done most of that tbh, Well apart from TPS STPS as both of those have been marked up with their position so do not want to move them as bike runs sweet with no hesitation etc and great power right through. I have balanced the throttle bodies and done a full service although was recently done by the previous owner. Looked in the air filter case and squeaky clean, Plugs looked good also.
Also to add guys as not sure If I mentioned it but only really seems to be doing it out of the near side pipe! You do see a little from the Right but think that's just where some is crossing the link pipe.
Have you checked the rubber vac lines to each TB? They perish and upset the balance....but then idle and running could be off, unless the tps and stps are compensating enough, if running rich then the near side plugs would be fouled too.
I dont think a PC5 and dyno tune will resolve it tbh
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
Ouch, that's a new cam cover gasket & so forth too then? I don't think I've ever replaced one, I just smear with a tiny bit of sealant & forget it afterwards. Personally I'd do the same with the PAIRs seals, but then I'm a cheapskate & reuse seals when rebuilding brakes or slave cylinders too.
Hopefully it fixes your issues and as Seth says, check the valve clearances while in there. They'll be fine, I've never known one of these bikes needing them adjusting unless they've had new cams fitted. But it's easy to do so worth it for peace of mind.
Might be nothing, but do you leave the bike on the side stand? I've had several bikes over the years, including my 14, if left on the side stand over a period of time it causes the near side to smoke on start up.
Quote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 08:52 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
Ouch, that's a new cam cover gasket & so forth too then? I don't think I've ever replaced one, I just smear with a tiny bit of sealant & forget it afterwards. Personally I'd do the same with the PAIRs seals, but then I'm a cheapskate & reuse seals when rebuilding brakes or slave cylinders too.
Hopefully it fixes your issues and as Seth says, check the valve clearances while in there. They'll be fine, I've never known one of these bikes needing them adjusting unless they've had new cams fitted. But it's easy to do so worth it for peace of mind.
Yeah afraid so :sad: new Rocker Gasket £48 rocker bolt washers £31 for 8 little bits of rubber ffs and the 4 pairs seals. As it's 20+ yrs old I would imagine the old ones will be pretty rough. Valves should be fine as only done 8k miles and sounds sweet.
I never thought an old Suzuki would cost more to repair than my Ducati, I changed the rocker cover gasket on that and cost half as much lol
Quote from: T250 on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 10:44 PMMight be nothing, but do you leave the bike on the side stand? I've had several bikes over the years, including my 14, if left on the side stand over a period of time it causes the near side to smoke on start up.
Good shout, But sadly this is either on centre stand or side and even after a 2 hr blast. As seen in the youtube video link, That was on the centre stand and fully hot. Doesn't smoke at all when cold.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 10:47 PMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 08:52 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 05:08 AMQuote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 09 January 2024, 02:28 AMI'd go with swapping those two seals Seth mentioned before you consider spending hundreds of quid on it.
Well guys I have ordered the parts so will see where this will take me. Even just to do this little job has cost over £80 so fingers crossed. Only thing that makes me think it may not be is like the stem seals , I would imagine it would be bad on start up if they weeped etc.
Time will tell and at least they will be done.
Ouch, that's a new cam cover gasket & so forth too then? I don't think I've ever replaced one, I just smear with a tiny bit of sealant & forget it afterwards. Personally I'd do the same with the PAIRs seals, but then I'm a cheapskate & reuse seals when rebuilding brakes or slave cylinders too.
Hopefully it fixes your issues and as Seth says, check the valve clearances while in there. They'll be fine, I've never known one of these bikes needing them adjusting unless they've had new cams fitted. But it's easy to do so worth it for peace of mind.
Yeah afraid so :sad: new Rocker Gasket £48 rocker bolt washers £31 for 8 little bits of rubber ffs and the 4 pairs seals. As it's 20+ yrs old I would imagine the old ones will be pretty rough. Valves should be fine as only done 8k miles and sounds sweet.
I never thought an old Suzuki would cost more to repair than my Ducati, I changed the rocker cover gasket on that and cost half as much lol
When you do it, careful of those eight bolts holding the cam cover on. They are easy to strip the holes in the cam carriers they bolt into. I double check they are clean before starting them in the thread.
From memory they are M7x1.0 which I found out after having to put thread inserts in three of mine.
Hi,
Well the update so far, took it for a good blast yesterday and rides beautifully. Pulls all the way to redline etc stopped several times and checked for smoke and there was none.
Let the bike sit idling for some time and actually see the fan come on lol thought it was a fake 😅
After idling for some time and revving, the smoke started to return. I smelt it and smelt very fuel rich.
Today I thought I would check the sensors. EOT sensor I couldn't really check as had the tank off etc so couldn't run the bike to check oil temp. Air temp sensor was working fine. I checked the tps and was reading 1400 ohms and not 1100. I take it this would also make it run slightly rich if it thinks the valves are more open than they are? The stps was also reading 1000 ohms and not 800.
I could not adjust just yet as do not have the right tool.
What's people's take on this?
Cheers
Setting the tps &stpa are always a good thing .
I'd still also go with my first thoughts of a leaking pairs seal as the smoke comes when the motor is hot(oil thinner) or a valve stem seal I'd still pop off the pairs covers and have a look in (remover the reed valve holders) as it's a quick way to see if the problem is there (any wetness or oil shouldn't be in there)
Good luck :cheers:
Quote from: seth on Monday, 15 January 2024, 02:58 AMSetting the tps &stpa are always a good thing .
I'd still also go with my first thoughts of a leaking pairs seal as the smoke comes when the motor is hot(oil thinner) or a valve stem seal I'd still pop off the pairs covers and have a look in (remover the reed valve holders) as it's a quick way to see if the problem is there (any wetness or oil shouldn't be in there)
Good luck :cheers:
Will do, will I need pairs gaskets as well mate?
Shouldnt need new gaskets for the PAIRS covers.
Blue smoke is oil, so you have oil leaking into a hot exhaust somewhere.
Good tip on the PAIRS reed valves. Is your PAIRS still connected, or has it been blanked off like most do? Id be checking the seala from them down to the exhaust, as Hooli said, these motors rarely need valve clearances checked and or valve stem seals done.
If you have a multimeter to check the TPS and STPS, all you need to adjust is the correct Torx to undo the screws that hold them in. Check out the manual for setting the TPS, pretty easy, just need to make sure idle is set at 1100rpm, then set the TPS to 1100 Ohm to match by adjusting the sensor position relative to its mount. The eyelets in the sensor are slotted to suit.
The upper value doesnt matter too much, its the at-idle value thats important
One other comment on setting the TPS. Balance the throttles first, as that affects the reading because the sensor is using no1 TB to know the position of no3 TB (which is the one the cables are connected too).
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 15 January 2024, 06:32 PMOne other comment on setting the TPS. Balance the throttles first, as that affects the reading because the sensor is using no1 TB to know the position of no3 TB (which is the one the cables are connected too).
Hi,
Thanks for the info, I have balanced the throttle bodies a month ago and got all the parts to carry out the pairs seal replacement. (Hopefully easy to find once cover is off)
The sensors are both out a bit and idle is at 1100 so once to security hex turns up I will adjust those to spec. :-)
*edit the pairs system is still connected
Ahh you should be fine then.
I always mention it as I've known people do it the wrong way round & end up with a bike running worse than they started with.
A tip then if PAIRS is still hooked up is to remove the diaphragm valve (under the tank) and hoses to the PAIRS valves and blank off the outlet from each PAIRS valve on the rocker cover. I just used a short bit of rubber vac hose zip tied onto the PAIRS cover outlet, doubled back on itself and the end crimped by a zip tie. A blanking kit makes it look better but does the same. The tank hides the covers mostly.
Theres a sticky on here detailing more on deleting the PAIRS.
Once youve disconnected PAIRS, check for smoke from the exhaust, if still there then its the PAIRS seals through the head, valve stem seals or piston rings (in descending order of likelihood).
You also mentioned a rich fuel smell, I reckon thats related to the TPS setting and unrelated to the (blue) smoke issue. Correcting the tps will make the throttle smoother and improve fuel economy in my view
One more questions guys,
Is there anything I should be aware of when removing the rocker cover? ie pipes, gaskets anything under it that may come loose etc? Thanks
Nope just taken it easy with the rocker gasket and reseal the half moons when refitting it .
I replied to your pm and sent an email to you .
:cheers:
Quote from: seth on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 12:06 AMNope just taken it easy with the rocker gasket and reseal the half moons when refitting it .
I replied to your pm and sent an email to you .
:cheers:
Seen that Seth, Much appreciated :grin: :cheers:
Quote from: Xdiavel on Monday, 15 January 2024, 09:48 PMOne more questions guys,
Is there anything I should be aware of when removing the rocker cover? ie pipes, gaskets anything under it that may come loose etc? Thanks
Beware of the dowel pins.
Quote from: Andre on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 02:43 AMQuote from: Xdiavel on Monday, 15 January 2024, 09:48 PMOne more questions guys,
Is there anything I should be aware of when removing the rocker cover? ie pipes, gaskets anything under it that may come loose etc? Thanks
Beware of the dowel pins.
Are they what the seals sit on?
On a plus note, All sensors now back in spec :grin:
Also removed the pairs cover and lovely and clean in there.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 04:19 AMQuote from: Andre on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 02:43 AMQuote from: Xdiavel on Monday, 15 January 2024, 09:48 PMOne more questions guys,
Is there anything I should be aware of when removing the rocker cover? ie pipes, gaskets anything under it that may come loose etc? Thanks
Beware of the dowel pins.
Are they what the seals sit on?
Screenshot from 2024-01-15 20-22-57.png
I remember some guy dropped one into the engine. I lift the cover a little bit to see if they sit in the cover (will be fine if they all sit in their place in the head. If any sits in the cover, I would insert some carton between the cover and the head so it doesn't drop down the cam chain "shaft".
I've never known one move, but that's a good point.
I only know of the one case. Mine were where they belonged. But better safe than sorry.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 04:22 AMOn a plus note, All sensors now back in spec :grin:
Also removed the pairs cover and lovely and clean in there.
I was hoping you'd find something hopefully the sensors being back in spec help .
Only other thing was when hooli had an engine temp sensor go out do the bike thought it was always below freezing but he'll hopefully explain that better .
Good luck
Bike is smoking, oil burn obviously. Im a bit lost, what is achieved by removing valve cover?
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 07:29 PMBike is smoking, oil burn obviously. Im a bit lost, what is achieved by removing valve cover?
The PAIRs seals Barmy mentioned as a possible cause are under the cam cover.
Quote from: seth on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 07:13 PMOnly other thing was when hooli gad an engine temp sensor go out do the bike thought it was always below freezing but he'll hopefully explain that better .
Good luck
I can't see it being that, it didn't cause smoking. Just at 24mpg fuel drinking habit.
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 07:29 PMBike is smoking, oil burn obviously. Im a bit lost, what is achieved by removing valve cover?
It's the first quick and least invasive way to check if any oil is getting past the seals into the valves .
If that's all good the next steps are head off and check the valve stem seals and valve seats and then if they are OK the piston rings sealing properly .
We have all read the nightmares that taking the head off can give (broken exhaust bolts being the worst)
:cheers:
Checked the air box for oil?
Sure hope those seals are your problem.
Quote from: Andre on Tuesday, 16 January 2024, 10:33 PMChecked the air box for oil?
Yes mate, The air box is spotless as is the reed valves etc.
I will be doing the seals this weekend hopefully, So can fire it up and check that the sensor moves hasn't knocked too much out. Cannot start it yet as got the bike in bits and tank off etc ready for the weekend.
Also got the rear brake lever off too atm as it's sticking. And now noticed the front fork seal leaking. For such a low mls bike and how clean it was I am just finding one thing after another atm and feel I have been taken for a ride pardon the pun for what I paid for it!!
But I suppose it will all be done for the new season and want for nothing. If the pairs seals do not fix it then I will forget about it for the time being as the valve stem seals will cost a small fortune.
Have you checked oil level? Sometimes an overfilled engine will smoke
Typical low mileage bike tbh. Everything has gone hard & fails when subjected to use. My 14 was the same when I got it at 7 years old & just 7.5k on it.
If you take the forks out & do the seals, I'd drop the yokes too. Suzuki factory workers appear to be allergic to grease so a repacking will help. That's if the bottom one isn't rusty from condensation inside the frame. Talking of which, if you're feeling brave the swingarm bearings will probably need wiping clean & more grease too. The LH one always gets rust coloured discolouration in the grease from the condensation running to the side when the bike is on the side stand. While the swingarm is out, grease the shock pivots top & bottom....
That should keep you busy till it's warm enough to enjoy riding.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Wednesday, 17 January 2024, 07:59 PMFor such a low mls bike and how clean it was I am just finding one thing after another atm and feel I have been taken for a ride pardon the pun for what I paid for it!!
Common erroneous assumption that (Old!) low mileage bikes have fewer problems than their higher mileage compatriots. Sitting around too much is not only detrimental to human health, but also to bikes (etc.). Leaky SEALS are a very common problem in very low mileage oldies.
EDIT: The gunk mineral oil leaves behind helps to seal the seals. Synthetic oil cleans all the gunk out; that's the crux when changing from mineral to synthetic. It gets rid of the plugs that keeps the leaks at bay. The loosened gunk , when getting between the clutch plates, makes the clutch slip.
Also don't use any engine oil cleaner! I would never use that anyhow in a 14. Full synthetic oil is a much better, howbeit more expensive, choice to have a clean the engine.
I suggest to only use mineral oil in your engine. NO hydro-crack or synthetic. That's from a guy that only runs true fully synthetic in his 14 :facepalm:
Quote from: Andre on Wednesday, 17 January 2024, 08:51 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Wednesday, 17 January 2024, 07:59 PMFor such a low mls bike and how clean it was I am just finding one thing after another atm and feel I have been taken for a ride pardon the pun for what I paid for it!!
Common erroneous assumption that (Old!) low mileage bikes have fewer problems than their higher mileage compatriots. Sitting around too much is not only detrimental to human health, but also to bikes (etc.). Leaky SEALS are a very common problem in very low mileage oldies.
EDIT: The gunk mineral oil leaves behind helps to seal the seals. Synthetic oil cleans all the gunk out; that's the crux when changing from mineral to synthetic. It gets rid of the plugs that keeps the leaks at bay. The loosened gunk , when getting between the clutch plates, makes the clutch slip.
Also don't use any engine oil cleaner! I would never use that anyhow in a 14. Full synthetic oil is a much better, howbeit more expensive, choice to have a clean the engine.
I suggest to only use mineral oil in your engine. NO hydro-crack or synthetic. That's from a guy that only runs true fully synthetic in his 14 :facepalm:
I gave this a full service a month or so ago and used Semi synthetic so all should be good there but as you say I have no idea what previous owners had done to it.
So far I have fitted a full exhaust system, LED bulb change, Polished both engine cases and front forks, Changed rear light, Balanced the throttle bodies, Full service with plugs, polished headlight brackets, Painted the centre stand and side stand, Changed clocks to custom gear change and new surround. Renthol bars. And all this since November lol I have lived in the garage! and now finding this smoke issue/fork issue/Brake issue is to say the least getting right on my last nerve. I had 04/05 R1/Fireblades and never had one issue.
I have enjoyed most of it but this smoke issue could brake me lol I just prey that these seals work.
Re fork seals, i can recommend genuine ones. I had one set of All Balls Racing that failed again in about 6 months after putting them in. Cheaper aint better
Diavel, would be testing me out. Mines always been the opposite, so good. I once had a Norton Commando, classic bikes they say. Mine was classic crap, every time i fixed something it raised more probs. My worst bike by miles.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Thursday, 18 January 2024, 09:24 AMRe fork seals, i can recommend genuine ones. I had one set of All Balls Racing that failed again in about 6 months after putting them in. Cheaper aint better
I've never had any make of fork seals except genuine last in these bikes.
Suzuki OEM are NOK brand. Sometimes 1/2 the price. But yeah, waste of time fitting others.
Think I am just annoyed really as got it looking close to brand new since winter started and then find more :rolleyes:
I think once this weekends work is done ie the seals, Rear brake and put back together I will feel better about it. That will just leave the fork seals to do which I have lined up with a mate as he has done a lot on Bandits.
I took it for a test ride last weekend to check if it is still smoking and must say it still shocks me how smooth She is :smile2: My other bike is an x-diavel 1262 L-twin and that feels like a shaking tractor compared to the GSX.
Quote from: grog on Thursday, 18 January 2024, 06:59 PMSuzuki OEM are NOK brand. Sometimes 1/2 the price. But yeah, waste of time fitting others.
Handy to know, thanks.
I've just done a set of forks for a friend (new bushes and oil) he also wanted fork seals but the parten ones that came with the kit only had a single seal fork seal unlike the double seal on suzuki ones (refitted his original seals as nothing wrong with them) pyramid parts kit .
Well, terrible weekend, yes I lost a dowel pin and thought it dropped Into the cylinder :rolleyes: but had to buy a borescope and found it in an oil chamber deep down and grabbed it with a magnet thank god!
The other bad part is all 4 pistons are wet on top especially by the indents on the pistons that look like holes. I have not yet changed the seals so not sure if still the same after, very nervous now. How do I upload pictures please. Normally it's just an attachment but this seems a bit overly complicated. Spark plugs are fine and not wet.
*edit looking more closely the oil pools are at the indent side which is the valve side, so could potentially tie in with where these pairs egress over the exhaust valves.
Probably needs an Italian Tune Up, go give her a damn good workout n see how she is after that.
Well I think now the oil pooling by the exhaust valves on the pistons is more likely because the bike is on its stand so nose down come to think of it.
https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/1/4131-220124063624.jpeg[/img]](https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/1/4131-220124063624.jpeg) (http://[img)
As you can see there looks to be Oil pooling by the indent that looks like a hole, So there is defo an oil issue. Been had with this bike I feel. But wont let it beat me :angry:
https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/1/4131-220124221415.jpeg[/img]](https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/1/4131-220124221415.jpeg) (http://[img)
Well if the PAIRs seals are leaking into the ports, then oil will run into the combustion chamber when parked for any cylinder where the exhaust valves aren't closed.
As hooli said about the seals
It can only be them or the valvestem seals .
If it was rings the piston tops would be all burnt .
Is it just 1 piston ,1 pair (1-2,3-4) or all 4 pisons ?
The pistons look too clean for it to be a massive motor problem .
Hate to jinx you as with the dowel pin.
I assume you have been able to check the PAIR seals and that they are OK. Right?
If so, I would do a leak test. That should help finding any leaks location. I bet valve stem seals gone; but more is possible. As said previously: seals are fairly common issue on very low-mileage old bikes.
BTW, changing the valve-stem seals can be done without removing the head:
I've seen that before Andre looks a much better way to change valvestem seals than stripping the top end (along with all the known risks that go with that)
:cheers:
Quote from: seth on Monday, 22 January 2024, 10:59 PMAs hooli said about the seals
It can only be them or the valvestem seals .
If it was rings the piston tops would be all burnt .
Is it just 1 piston ,1 pair (1-2,3-4) or all 4 pisons ?
The pistons look too clean for it to be a massive motor problem .
Hi,
They're wet across all 4 pistons sadly. My only thought to not think it's the PAIRs seals is that they sit higher up ie out of the oil when the bike is off where the valve stem seals are lower down and probably sit in a lot more oil to be able to leak through?
I understand I suppose that when on engine over run it can pull a bit of oil through the seals then when sat it drips down the outlet.
Never done valve stem seals before so hoping it's not those as will have to do the timing also ie make sure the Cam gears are spot on etc but cannot justify spending any more on it at this time to get a shop to do it. :bugga:
Quote from: Andre on Monday, 22 January 2024, 11:44 PMHate to jinx you as with the dowel pin.
I assume you have been able to check the PAIR seals and that they are OK. Right?
If so, I would do a leak test. That should help finding any leaks location. I bet valve stem seals gone; but more is possible. As said previously: seals are fairly common issue on very low-mileage old bikes.
BTW, changing the valve-stem seals can be done without removing the head:
I have seen a couple of methods using string and bringing the pistons up to TDC so the valves do not drop etc. Will have a look at that Vid in a mo
Quote from: Xdiavel on Monday, 22 January 2024, 11:56 PMMy only thought to not think it's the PAIRs seals is that they sit higher up ie out of the oil when the bike is off where the valve stem seals are lower down and probably sit in a lot more oil to be able to leak through?
Correct.
Getting the marks right is straightforward you just need to check and recheck but it's fairly easy.
If you could get the valvestem seals replaced without out removing the head (as per Andre's suggestion) that would be a massive bonus and save loads if cash in the process.
As before I wish you good luck .
Shame your not closer .
Quote from: seth on Tuesday, 23 January 2024, 01:09 AMGetting the marks right is straightforward you just need to check and recheck but it's fairly easy.
If you could get the valvestem seals replaced without out removing the head (as per Andre's suggestion) that would be a massive bonus and save loads if cash in the process.
As before I wish you good luck .
Shame your not closer .
Cheers Seth,
There are quite a few video's where you put thick string in the bore through the spark plug hole and leave some hanging out and raise to TDC which pushes against the valves and holds them in place while you do each set of 4 so no head removal needed. I do not have an air compressor or tools so unable to pressurise the bores.
Will still try to stay optimistic on the pairs seals lol
The thick string trick sounded good to me. But then I found this comment (pinned by the author) on the 1st video that came up in the search:
Quote!!!WARNING!!! After watching your video I decided to use the 'Rope' as opposed to 'Air'. On BMW S63 engine I stuffed cylinder 1 with nylon rope, turn crank until it stopped, removed valve springs. I turned the crank counter-clockwise slightly to release top of cylinder from compressing rope. When attempting to remove rope it would not come out. After using my bore scope to view inside the cylinder, it had somehow developed a knot. At this moment the nylon rope is stuck in the cylinder and will not come out, no matter how much pulling force is applied. I picked at it for 4 hours to try to undo know, impossible. I am now in the process of removing the head to get the rope out, which includes removing turbos, all associated coolant and oil lines, then the exhaust manifold. What a mess!!! DO NOT RISK IT!!!
There is another method (also by the author of the first, which I definitely would not dare to try:
Compressors can be borrowed or rented!
Diavel, ive done cars using compressed air. All have went well. Doing 14, lot smaller, less free space, fiddly job id reckon. Totally possible. As you do each cylinder,make sure motor is locked up, in gear, you dont want it to turn. A perfect to use spring compressor will be important. Best of luck Mate.
Same here, have done cars this way. Put the cylinder youre working on at tdc, this way much less chance of the collet and or valve dropping away
Decades ago there was even a special tool for Ford CVH engines that replaced the rocker to do stem seals this way. We all put RS Turbo ones on as they didn't ride up the stem as soon as you started the engine.
Thinking about it, I've still got that tool somewhere.
Well finally got it back together and sadly it is still doing it :-(
So sadly looks like it's all got to come apart again and torn down for the stem seals.
Not a happy bunny atm but was worth a try
Not what you wanted Mate. Would piss me right off. I really doubted the pairs seals.Did it smoke b4 you changed oil? Maybe try diff brand.Big/ expensive job head off. Hire compressor, buy spring tool, have a go with head on. Theres a product Forte seal conditioner, gets good reviews, not sure how it goes with clutch.
Quote from: grog on Sunday, 28 January 2024, 05:58 PMNot what you wanted Mate. Would piss me right off. I really doubted the pairs seals.Did it smoke b4 you changed oil? Maybe try diff brand.Big/ expensive job head off. Hire compressor, buy spring tool, have a go with head on. Theres a product Forte seal conditioner, gets good reviews, not sure how it goes with clutch.
If you change the oil and give it a try .
Just remember to also empty the oil cooler and remove as much of the current oil as possible. Before refilling
Good luck buddy sounds more and more of a nightmare but I'm thinking of the easy/cheaper things to try before getting into the motor .
If you can change. The valvestem seals without taking the head off that will be a bonus .
Thanks lads,
My friend has an air compressor and big double garage albeit filled with bikes lol so will have some space. I have ordered the seals at £78 for 17 -one spare for my shat luck, and going to buy the seal tool kit which included the air line etc for £28 + some Moly.
I can get the rocker cover off in around 40mins taking my time I feel, and should be able to get the cams etc out in another 30mins.
So famous last words, I hope to have it all done in a day.
Somebody will get a hell of a bike when I come to sell this lol
Spoke to a garage and got quoted £800 and would remove the head. So it's really worth having a go yourself.
I used to change these seals and lap valves on old single cylinder Generators 20yrs ago so pretty similar but may just be very awkward to get to some while still in the bike.
Best luck Mate, great attitude. 👏👍
Well finally gave this a go Yesterday between two of us. We started at approx 9am and took a fair few coffee breaks,albeit very short and finished at 8pm, the Two cylinders beneath the frame were the time consumers and the collets.
But considering we did this with the head in situ and a first attempt I thought that wasn't too shabby. It has now lost it's slight missfire on idle which is good,prob due to burning oil too lol so sounds to be running a lot better atm I run it up for some time today in the garage and so far no smoke :-) but not counting my chickens just yet without a fall ride out test when the weather clears up.
I did stick the bore scope back down and the piston crown is still looking a bit wet which I am not happy about but not seeing a collection of oil built up on the piston like before but will check again in a few days to see if there has been any weeping. Fingers crossed it will be ok.
but thankfully that job is now done and £800 saved.
Top job Mate. What tools you used etc would be a good post👍
Quote from: grog on Monday, 19 February 2024, 06:04 PMTop job Mate. What tools you used etc would be a good post👍
Hi Mate,
Thanks, I really do hope this has sorted it now, the bike is running nice though now so has made a difference. Makes you wonder how many others are suffering from similar as only noticed on this when idling for some time and a camera thrown down it's neck :laugh:
The main tool used was off ebay for £35 and cannot see how you could do it without it tbh so I was very glad I stumbled across it. It's called (Cylinder Head Valve Spring Compressor Stem Seal Installer Tool Kit UK)
Tool of the day was a Flexible Magnetic pick up tool with 500mm Flexible Gooseneck with 6mm wide magnet end. Amazon £5.49
You will also need ( which was another lucky find ) Draper 10mm 12mm Adaptor for Compression Tester. (£6.99 EBAY) This is for the end of the air line to fit the diameter of the spark plug hole.
I did replace all Gaskets which wasn't too cheap but I could have got away the old ones but as they're all 21yrs old now, Then Why not.
Most of the knowledge is in the manual where it shows you how to re-do the timing etc we put a long screwdriver down each plug hole and brought each piston up to TDC so it covers your arse if the valve drops as it wont disappear into the cylinder. Best bit of advice I can give is fill each oil drain hole/Cam chain holes with rags as it really did save my arse on several occasions where a collet would ping off somewhere or drop of the screwdriver.
We was short on time as only had the day to get it done but if you could span it over a couple of days it wouldn't be too bad.
It IS a Two person job though.
Hi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Do a compression test. I'd be suspecting piston rings are worn.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 08:10 AMHi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Other ideas
I do remember someone having a problem similar to this and it was the seals around the pairs tunnel letting small amounts of oil into the valves.
This was caused by using the wrong oil (they'd usef fully synthetic motorcycle oil and it damaged the seals)
There are 2 small o'rings easy replaced between the rockercover and the head .
I used to have pictures but can't get my phone to work
Changing these seals takes 5 mins if you have the top off.
Quote from: seth on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:15 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 08:10 AMHi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Other ideas
I do remember someone having a problem similar to this and it was the seals around the pairs tunnel letting small amounts of oil into the valves.
This was caused by using the wrong oil (they'd usef fully synthetic motorcycle oil and it damaged the seals)
There are 2 small o'rings easy replaced between the rockercover and the head .
I used to have pictures but can't get my phone to work
Changing these seals takes 5 mins if you have the top off.
Hi Seth,
Thanks for replying, Sadly I have replaced these when I did the valve stem seals. So it isn't those.
I'm beginning to think the worst and the rings, But cannot believe the rings are gone at 9k mls unless the oil rings are stuck where it's been sitting for yrs.
But inside the bores are like new and the piston crown, albeit a bit wet. 😞
Is it possible your oil level too high ?
Crankcase vent blocked? that can force oil past the rings.
I'd be amazed if the rings had gone at 9k.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:29 PMQuote from: seth on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:15 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 08:10 AMHi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Other ideas
I do remember someone having a problem similar to this and it was the seals around the pairs tunnel letting small amounts of oil into the valves.
This was caused by using the wrong oil (they'd usef fully synthetic motorcycle oil and it damaged the seals)
There are 2 small o'rings easy replaced between the rockercover and the head .
I used to have pictures but can't get my phone to work
Changing these seals takes 5 mins if you have the top off.
Hi Seth,
Thanks for replying, Sadly I have replaced these when I did the valve stem seals. So it isn't those.
I'm beginning to think the worst and the rings, But cannot believe the rings are gone at 9k mls unless the oil rings are stuck where it's been sitting for yrs.
But inside the bores are like new and the piston crown, albeit a bit wet. 😞
Quote from: seth on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:15 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 08:10 AMHi again lol
Just an update on this. The valve stems seals did not fix the issue sadly.
I changed the aftermarket headers back to oem and thought that sorted it as well but oh no!
After a very spirited ride Yesterday and the bike sitting around 80 degrees I noticed smoke again. To 100% rule out fuelling issues I put the full oem exhaust back on, and ran it up to temp and guess what smoke when hot when revving and letting go!
So I really don't think this is valve stems as all been done. It only has 9k mls atm and idles and rides beautifully. And not noticing any oil loss albeit I do not ride it very much, roughly 1500mls pa.
No smoke on start up.
No smoke when riding.
No smoke when cold.
No oil in filter box.
The bike looks pretty much brand new. I had the sump of before and the internals are as new looking under it.
Any other ideas please?
I am really starting to hate this thing now especially as it is in beautifull condition.
Regards
Other ideas
I do remember someone having a problem similar to this and it was the seals around the pairs tunnel letting small amounts of oil into the valves.
This was caused by using the wrong oil (they'd usef fully synthetic motorcycle oil and it damaged the seals)
There are 2 small o'rings easy replaced between the rockercover and the head .
I used to have pictures but can't get my phone to work
Changing these seals takes 5 mins if you have the top off.
That's very low mileage for that kind if problem but least your going through things methodically and that's all you can do really
Wish you all the best with it
No idea if im correct but same symptoms.Back in 70s, first Z1 Kawas, Nissans at dealership where i worked, they blew blue smoke. It was due to rings not seating with cylinder walls. Brand new machines, started numerous time showrooms etc, never warmed up or used reasonably hard, that is no pressure on rings, they need pressure to bed to cylinder walls.Glazed bores they call it. Kawa answer was they supplied a kit to pull motor down, rehone cylinders,no new rings fitted. Nissan answer, they supplied an abrasive powder, rev motor, let it suck in thru carby, take for a 10k hard run, change engine oil. It worked 75%.After this long post, im thinking you have glazed bores.Must be a deglazing product you can try. Ill see what i can find.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Sunday, 25 May 2025, 05:29 PMBut inside the bores are like new and the piston crown, albeit a bit wet. 😞
"Bores are like new" - I assume that includes the proper honing-marks. So no glazing!?
Interesting Grog, many years ago Mitsubishi dealer we did work for had a couple of new cars stolen off the yard. They got a Tredia back and a Cordia Turbo got written off. The dealer told us the Tredia was the best one they had driven and used it as their demo car. From stone cold and thrashed.
Bores like new Andre, doesnt mean rings have bedded. Im not sure im on right track but looks similar story to me.Look up Maxodyne decarboniser. I cant get link to work.
Quote from: grog on Monday, 26 May 2025, 06:22 PMMaxodyne decarboniser. I cant get link to work.
https://maxodyne.com/product/ftc-decarbonizer/ (https://maxodyne.com/product/ftc-decarbonizer/)
Quote from: Andre on Monday, 26 May 2025, 07:08 PMQuote from: grog on Monday, 26 May 2025, 06:22 PMMaxodyne decarboniser. I cant get link to work.
https://maxodyne.com/product/ftc-decarbonizer/ (https://maxodyne.com/product/ftc-decarbonizer/)
Nice suggestion, looks great stuff. :clapping: :onya:
Can you use that on ceramic bores? I know you can't hone them as it takes the coating off.
Not sure Hooli. Maybe before he buys, send them an email
Aye be worth checking I'd say or it could cause more issues.
I'd still suspect something outside the bore/cylinder though. Normally if it's rings etc you'd see a difference across the pistons where one has failed & the others are ok, that's not been mentioned. So I'm thinking it's external to the cylinders & affecting the whole engine.
Quote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 27 May 2025, 06:04 PMI'd still suspect something outside the bore/cylinder though. Normally if it's rings etc you'd see a difference across the pistons where one has failed & the others are ok, that's not been mentioned. So I'm thinking it's external to the cylinders & affecting the whole engine.
Hi all,
Just to let you know I am still here and still got the issue :-(
I have an oil temp gauge in the filler hole, and it seems that when it hit 80deg or just above the problem starts.
I did the valve adjustment as cylinder 4 was tapping and after was nice and quiet.
Strangely this seemed to knock the throttle ballancing out once done which caused other issues. I re-balanced them again as cylinder 4 was now way out and causing a missfire! This solved that thankfully and wondered if I had been going around in circles with other issues.
I put the loud exhaust back on and went out to enjoy the old girl as not ridden it much due to falling out of love with it. Sadly the bike hit just over 80 degrees and could smell hot oil, then there it was smoking again!
The only thing left must be the rings! But as you say hooli I do not understand how this is effecting all 4 cylinders as the heads of the pistons were all wet.
I did do a compression test some time last year and nothing jumped out at me as being bad, that was on a cold engine.
I can't remember what you'd looked at now. Have you checked the crankcase breather that feds up to the airbox isn't blocked? The black block on top of the gearbox has some sort of mesh filter in it so I assume it could get blocked or the pipe twisted so it can't breathe there.
That'd cause too much crankcase pressure that could be forcing oil into places it shouldn't be.
Too thin / wrong type of oil? You're not running Motul7100 are you?
Gulf Western Synergy 3000 10w/40, engine quiet, shifts smooth & no clunking going into gear, the 1400 engine loves this stuff.
or wear on cylinder-piston or valve guides. There is no other outlet for the oil.
maybe a 5 or 10W50 oil will help a little
Quote from: KiwiCol on Tuesday, 07 October 2025, 05:24 AMToo thin / wrong type of oil? You're not running Motul7100 are you?
Gulf Western Synergy 3000 10w/40, engine quiet, shifts smooth & no clunking going into gear, the 1400 engine loves this stuff.
Hi, I am running Motul5100 10w/50
Quote from: Barbastro K6 on Tuesday, 07 October 2025, 06:01 AMor wear on cylinder-piston or valve guides. There is no other outlet for the oil.
maybe a 5 or 10W50 oil will help a little
Yeah agree, I am using 10w/50 and still does it sadly. If you look back at my cylinder picture, to me it looks washed out ie too clean. And a puddle of oil or possible fuel on top. This was on all cylinders if memory serves. But zero smoke when cold started.
Valve seals changed and made no difference, all new head seals and gasgets
When idling for while when hot oil temp 80+ deg there is no smoke until you rev it then only on deceleration. And only short sharp revs. If you hold the throttle at say 5k rpm then let go there is nothing.
Rode 5 mins until temp dropped to approx 70deg got off and repeated and nothing,no smoke at all
Quote from: Hooli on Tuesday, 07 October 2025, 05:01 AMI can't remember what you'd looked at now. Have you checked the crankcase breather that feds up to the airbox isn't blocked? The black block on top of the gearbox has some sort of mesh filter in it so I assume it could get blocked or the pipe twisted so it can't breathe there.
That'd cause too much crankcase pressure that could be forcing oil into places it shouldn't be.
Hi mate,
It only has 9k mls and I did check the airbox and that pipe and it is like new ie not any sign of oil/misting in the hose. Checked pairs and they are as new looking.
I will try another compression test Saturday when it's warm and see what I get.
But by the way She pulls I don't think there is much wrong power wise.
Your pairs are as new looking, hmmm, well as a no cost possible solution, consider doing the pairs delete mod & see how it goes, you can always just connect everything back up if it's no different, but many just remove the pairs system, block off the hoses & covers with no issues.
Just thinking that oil is getting in somewhere & it could be through this system.
To try with pairs disabled, just block its inlet hose at airbox. Marble or similar. Other thought have you tried a different oil brand? Might sound stupid but once had a work ute, changed brands and blew smoke, changed back and came good.
Grog, go back 5 posts on the previous page (earlier this morning) I was also saying about Oil, reco Gulf Western 3000 :onya:
I keep re-reading. 9,000 miles! That's bugger all for a bike of this vintage. Wonder if the bores are glazed over - from boredom? Perhaps some running in oil and a good Italian Tune Up for a few hundy miles then change oil back. Reckon that's why you can't find a fault, once the oil gets hot & thin it gets past the rings at times. Comp would be good cold too.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 07 October 2025, 07:49 AMf you look back at my cylinder picture, to me it looks washed out ie too clean. And a puddle of oil or possible fuel on top. This was on all cylinders if memory serves. But zero smoke when cold started.
QuoteRider behind said smells very rich
Sounds like overfuelling at higher engine temp. Oil temp sensor the most likely cause. Have you checked/replaced it?
Pics show imo clear wash-out from too much fuel.
Hi, I am running Motul5100 10w/50
[/quote]
I ran that stuff for a few oil changes. Wasn't happy with the way the gearbox felt. So as per Grogs advice changed to Gulf Western syn-x3000 10w40. Used it now for 100,000kms with 5000km oil and filter changes.
I only fill to half way between the marks when its on the centre stand. When the bike is on the ground after being filled to the top mark while on the centre stand I reckon it looks over filled.
Col, i did oil experiment on old org. 2 years of testing, all disappeared when org failed. I remember the dearest, Motul, i remember the worst gear change, Motul. All IMO
Thanks for all the replies guys, I do really appreciate it. I had a tinker with the TPS last night just in-case it wasn't quite right, Waste of time really as it rides like new through the whole rev range.
But ran it up again while working from home and bang on queue at 80deg oil temp it starts smoking when revved.
I had a board of wood up behind one of the tail pipes and gave it a few revs and could not see any oil spits on it. I then held a bit of kitchen role scrunched up against one of the pipe outlets and smoke really did show up around the paper when slightly blocking it. Again no oil spitting just a light brown dirty looking stain on the paper.
The smoke is light white in colour, I wouldn't say blue for oil but then I wouldn't say Black for over fuelling either.
Kind Regards
Quote from: Andre on Tuesday, 07 October 2025, 02:24 PMQuote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 07 October 2025, 07:49 AMf you look back at my cylinder picture, to me it looks washed out ie too clean. And a puddle of oil or possible fuel on top. This was on all cylinders if memory serves. But zero smoke when cold started.
QuoteRider behind said smells very rich
Sounds like overfuelling at higher engine temp. Oil temp sensor the most likely cause. Have you checked/replaced it?
Pics show imo clear wash-out from too much fuel.
hi Andre,
Thanks for commenting. I did test this last year but as I have just ran the bike up to 80deg I though why not test again when hot.
Interestingly it is only showing 3.8 Kohms at 80deg where the Manual states it should be showing 6.2 kohms at 80 deg. Bu that could be my temp gauge showing slightly out also. mmmmmmmmm
Engine Oil Resistance Temp.
20°C( 68°F) Approx. 61.3 kΩ
50°C(122°F) Approx. 17.8 kΩ
80°C(176°F) Approx. 6.2 kΩ
110°C(230°F) Approx. 2.5 kΩ
Those figures for the oil temp sensor look roughly right from memory.
Is it actually burning enough oil to need topping up when ridden regularly? white smoke says water to me, but that doesn't make sense on a 14 unless the oil is full of condensation & you'd notice that quickly enough in the level window.
Quote from: Xdiavel on Wednesday, 08 October 2025, 12:16 AMBu that could be my temp gauge showing slightly out also
If you took the temp from a "screw-in" temp gauge, then all bets are off. The difference between screw-in and the point where temp is taken for the fan switch is in my case 15-20 °C. No idea what the temp difference between "screw-in" and EOT-sensor would be, but I expect it to be higher at the location of the sensor. The way to test the EOT-sensor is outside the bike.
As oil temp increases and kΩ decreases, fuel amount decreases. With your kΩ lower than expected (likely to be correct considering the location and thus higher temp), I'd say that the sensor is working ok.
There are some other things to test. See manual at page 4-37.
As the problem appears temp related, I would also check the IAT-Sensor.
Quote from: Andre on Wednesday, 08 October 2025, 01:26 AMQuote from: Xdiavel on Wednesday, 08 October 2025, 12:16 AMBu that could be my temp gauge showing slightly out also
If you took the temp from a "screw-in" temp gauge, then all bets are off. The difference between screw-in and the point where temp is taken for the fan switch is in my case 15-20 °C. No idea what the temp difference between "screw-in" and EOT-sensor would be, but I expect it to be higher at the location of the sensor. The way to test the EOT-sensor is outside the bike.
As oil temp increases and kΩ decreases, fuel amount decreases. With your kΩ lower than expected (likely to be correct considering the location and thus higher temp), I'd say that the sensor is working ok.
There are some other things to test. See manual at page 4-37.
As the problem appears temp related, I would also check the IAT-Sensor.
Hi,
I tested that while I had the side panel off and that checks out ok too.
I am going to do the pairs block and compression test the weekend and take it for a ride. My guess will be exactly the same as the pcv system and airbox are very clean.
If you look at the piston picture I posted early in the thread, on the far left there looks to be a little pool of oil or petrol but looks more oil to me.
I might just do the rings anyway, at least it will tick that box. After that if it still does it, then it's going up in flames hahaha 😆
God knows what previous owners have done to this.
Just a thought, you can get good compression with duff oil rings. But I really can't see that happening over all four cylinders equally.
When releasing the throttle and closing throttles, a strong suction of oil is made between cylinder and piston.
If you suspect, there could be a piston ring stuck together that allows oil to pass through.
perhaps because of a "very smooth" conduction or because of the quality of the oil or because its base is very mineral, not synthetic
I still think it might be worth taking the crankcase filter off the engine & checking it's clear.
I know you've checked the pipe to the airbox, but the black box thing on top of the gearbox has a metal mesh filter in it. If that's blocked you won't get any oil in the airbox but you will get high crankcase pressure which can force oil past the rings on the overrun when cylinder pressures are lowest.
Just putting a longer pipe on it & blowing down it might be enough to check. Or run the bike with it like that & you should feel air pulsing in & out of it if it's clear.
also. Yessssss
Quote from: Hooli on Wednesday, 08 October 2025, 07:00 AMI still think it might be worth taking the crankcase filter off the engine & checking it's clear.
I know you've checked the pipe to the airbox, but the black box thing on top of the gearbox has a metal mesh filter in it. If that's blocked you won't get any oil in the airbox but you will get high crankcase pressure which can force oil past the rings on the overrun when cylinder pressures are lowest.
Just putting a longer pipe on it & blowing down it might be enough to check. Or run the bike with it like that & you should feel air pulsing in & out of it if it's clear.
Thanks all,
Some very good ideas floating around. I was wondering about that Hooli. The thing that throws me is if the rings were worn which I cannot believe at 9k mls but as we all know on 23 yr old machines we never know how they have been treated, ( Bad run it etc) Could well have stuck rings but as the pic I posted shows the cylinders look like new and could see cross hatching when I last looked.
But I would expect to see Blow-by out of the PCV pipe but it is spotlessly clean. I had the sump off it last year too and it all looks brand new inside from underneath.
That does give me some things to try though before ripping it apart and doing the rings. So thanks all
Kind Regards
Ok,
Tested the PVC pipe and that seems fine, didn't have the right size hose but found a pipe that fitted into the oil fill hole and blew into the crankcase and could feel/hear it lightly out of the hose.
Also ran the bike for a minute with the pipe off and could feel light air blowing against my finger. No smoke/No high pressure blowing.
I'd be very surprised at rings with only 9k on too, especially as you can still see cross hatching so we know it's not glazed the bores.
Quote from: Hooli on Wednesday, 08 October 2025, 10:44 PMI'd be very surprised at rings with only 9k on too, especially as you can still see cross hatching so we know it's not glazed the bores.
Well here is a quick little video of it doing it, Cannot record too much as the Neighbours must really hate me right now. PCV pipe off at this time and engine very hot although gauge reads 10deg over by the look of things.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Tkx7FgVdKvw
It does nothing until the gauge hits 80 deg then this starts.
Probably not the case but whats the history of the bike, you mention no power commander, could a previous owner have had the ECU flashed & it is causing over fueling at higher temps as has been mentioned previously? depending on what ECU you have fitted (some have one big plug others have two different size plugs) I have a spare ECU off a K2 that I would be willing to post to you depending where you are to rule an ECU fault out if that helps. All I would ask is that you post it back to me once tested
Cheers, Pete
XDiavel, found this old thread, pretty much what youre saying. I watched your video, thought then really must be rings.Rollerfish was person. His thread worth reading. Was a few bits about honing or not to hone, interesting stuff.
If you do look for rings, I've noticed a lot of engine parts are massively reduced from Suzuki. These old girls must have got to the age they don't want to stock things for them anymore.
Quote from: grog on Thursday, 09 October 2025, 04:41 PMXDiavel, found this old thread, pretty much what youre saying. I watched your video, thought then really must be rings.Rollerfish was person. His thread worth reading. Was a few bits about honing or not to hone, interesting stuff.
Hi Grog,
Funny enough I found that last night and had a read and yes seem to be exactly what is happening to mine albeit his was high milage so would sort of expect it to a degree but 9k mls seems crazy on mine unless it has a oil rings stuck etc after sitting around for years doing hardly any miles. At this stage and the amount of time I have spent chasing this issue I think I am just going to have to bite the bullet and do the rings.
I think the biggest issue will be sourcing the smaller stuff like head bolts Or how much I could get away with reusing if needs be.
Quote from: Will14 on Thursday, 09 October 2025, 06:50 AMProbably not the case but whats the history of the bike, you mention no power commander, could a previous owner have had the ECU flashed & it is causing over fueling at higher temps as has been mentioned previously? depending on what ECU you have fitted (some have one big plug others have two different size plugs) I have a spare ECU off a K2 that I would be willing to post to you depending where you are to rule an ECU fault out if that helps. All I would ask is that you post it back to me once tested
Cheers, Pete
Hi Will,
That is amazingly kind of you, Thank you. I don't think I will try that just on the basis I believe I am seeing Oil on top of the cylinder (picture I posted earlier in the thread on the left side of the piston) And feel the smoke is more burnt oil than Fuel at this stage sadly.
I have no idea how this has even happened but feel I have been stitched up. I have done nothing but work on this bike trying to figure this issue out all the time I have owned it. I have too much money and time invested in it now to sell it and will not pass this issue on to somebody else to deal with as it goes against what I stand for.
I go away on Holiday in a week so will start stripping it down to the pistons when I return and try sourcing the parts I will need. As it's only a weekend toy there is no urgency so can try to enjoy it. If that is even a thing working on bikes :lol:
But at least I can say I did it if all goes well and will have an as new bike at the end of it I can run in properly and start a fresh. After than if it still does it then I am truly at a loss :-(
Double check the manual but I believe you shouldn't hone the bores on these. The ceramic coating is too thin to take it.
I just knew this would get back to hone or not. There was never a decision in earlier threads. Suzuki say no, others say yes. Steve Porter used to be on here, worth a look at his opinion, he honed composite Ducati with the old toilet brush hone.
Eric, try the Italian tune up first, if you're gonna do the rings any way, why not? I could say, ya just might get lucky, but you've proved that's another bloke. :onya:
Whatever happened to Lucky13? he was always about on the old Org.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Thursday, 09 October 2025, 07:24 PMEric, try the Italian tune up first, if you're gonna do the rings any way, why not? I could say, ya just might get lucky, but you've proved that's another bloke. :onya:
Hi,
Trust me I have given this bike the full berries many times to see if it would help, lol
Goes well and smokes well haha
Well I have bit the bullet and ordered the parts. I have a week off near the end of the month so will get stripping and building then as parts arrive.
Will give me something to do haha
Thanks for all suggestions guys, Much appreciated :onya:
Quote from: grog on Thursday, 09 October 2025, 07:07 PMI just knew this would get back to hone or not. There was never a decision in earlier threads. Suzuki say no, others say yes. Steve Porter used to be on here, worth a look at his opinion, he honed composite Ducati with the old toilet brush hone.
I will inspect the cylinder walls first before making that decision I feel. Will make sure there is good cross hatching etc, the guy in the attached thread didn't and he had success so will go with Suzuki's guidance on this one.
Very good guide this article.
Thank you xdiavel and the whole group of selfless helpers!
Quote from: Hooli on Thursday, 09 October 2025, 07:38 PMWhatever happened to Lucky13? he was always about on the old Org.
If I remember correctly his 14 caught fire on a Sunday morning ride out & the bike was no more, don't recall what happened after that with him though, although I seem to recall he was getting married tho so that probably put paid to any fun for a few years!
Quote from: Xdiavel on Thursday, 09 October 2025, 06:47 PMQuote from: Will14 on Thursday, 09 October 2025, 06:50 AMProbably not the case but whats the history of the bike, you mention no power commander, could a previous owner have had the ECU flashed & it is causing over fueling at higher temps as has been mentioned previously? depending on what ECU you have fitted (some have one big plug others have two different size plugs) I have a spare ECU off a K2 that I would be willing to post to you depending where you are to rule an ECU fault out if that helps. All I would ask is that you post it back to me once tested
Cheers, Pete
Hi Will,
That is amazingly kind of you, Thank you. I don't think I will try that just on the basis I believe I am seeing Oil on top of the cylinder (picture I posted earlier in the thread on the left side of the piston) And feel the smoke is more burnt oil than Fuel at this stage sadly.
I have no idea how this has even happened but feel I have been stitched up. I have done nothing but work on this bike trying to figure this issue out all the time I have owned it. I have too much money and time invested in it now to sell it and will not pass this issue on to somebody else to deal with as it goes against what I stand for.
I go away on Holiday in a week so will start stripping it down to the pistons when I return and try sourcing the parts I will need. As it's only a weekend toy there is no urgency so can try to enjoy it. If that is even a thing working on bikes :lol:
But at least I can say I did it if all goes well and will have an as new bike at the end of it I can run in properly and start a fresh. After than if it still does it then I am truly at a loss :-(
No problem, good luck with the strip down & rebuild, the offer stands if required
Quote from: Will14 on Friday, 10 October 2025, 05:10 AMQuote from: Hooli on Thursday, 09 October 2025, 07:38 PMWhatever happened to Lucky13? he was always about on the old Org.
If I remember correctly his 14 caught fire on a Sunday morning ride out & the bike was no more, don't recall what happened after that with him though, although I seem to recall he was getting married tho so that probably put paid to any fun for a few years!
Damn I don't remember that story at all!
Xdiavel, sure hope this is the fix🤞🏻Hard to understand why? Then again,Mate had Z1 Kawa and its rings never bedded from new, more smoke than yours.
Well people,
I am lost for words! I stripped it down today and as expected all 4 pistons crowns are wet with oil, mainly where the exhaust valves sit but then they are sloping down at the front.
As you can see from the video link all the rings are free and look new. (Changing them anyway) but the valve heads on the exhaust valves all look wet.
BUT looking through the exhaust holes all the stems are bone dry so do not see any oil running down them to the cylinder.
Cylinders all have great cross hatching as seen.
I really cannot figure this out!
https://youtu.be/WDEGkkW0Aok?si=NT8BRmWxYy9gI6YM
I wonder if the rings just never bedded in initially? :confused1: It's not coming from the top, it's not coming from the head gasket, there's no other place it can come from except below - past the rings.
Does sound like it may not have been run in properly and the rings never sealed/bedded in properly as Kiwicol mentioned
Perhaps you can monitor your engine oil usage. I know it only takes a poofteenth of oil to show smoke. So it may take a fair amount of time. Just my two cents worth :cheers:
I assume that the condition and color of the spark plugs is all correct.
No oil leakage into spark plugs
Great speedy work stripping and posting video👍Maybe get an engine shops opinion on cross hatching? In 50 odd yrs of motors i never re ringed one without honing.Know nothing on composite bores.
Might be silly, but have you checked the ring gap? I had a new set of pistons for a project several years ago and they were supplied with rings that were way out, turns out it was a bad batch from the manufacturer, I would find it hard to believe with Suzuki but just a thought.
Quote from: grog on Sunday, 12 October 2025, 04:36 PMGreat speedy work stripping and posting video👍Maybe get an engine shops opinion on cross hatching? In 50 odd yrs of motors i never re ringed one without honing.Know nothing on composite bores.
Thanks, took about 5 hrs taking my time and a lunch break lol it's only ever been ridden in dry weather as weekend play thing and low mls so everything come apart nicely. 😀
The Haynes manuel turned up today as there is a section that states do NOT hone the cylinders. The cross hatching in the cylinders look great IMO none of it has been worn out. I will replace the rings at 120° angles and drop the oil and run running in oil for another 600mls or so then buy some of the oil recommended on this thread. Cannot believe the cost of the rings though 😕
You'd be better off looking in the downloads section of this site & getting the official Suzuki workshop manual than following the haynes book of lies.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 13 October 2025, 04:04 AMYou'd be better off looking in the downloads section of this site & getting the official Suzuki workshop manual than following the haynes book of lies.
:onya: :cheesy: Yup the only good thing for a Haynes is to put it under the side stand if you're at a rally in a muddy field
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 13 October 2025, 04:04 AMYou'd be better off looking in the downloads section of this site & getting the official Suzuki workshop manual than following the haynes book of lies.
I have looked at those and I do not believe anything is mentioned about honing etc hence why I think there may have been a few debates on here about it.
Haynes states
The bores are electro-plated with Suzuki's SCEM (Suzuki composite Electro-chemical material) a highly wear resistant nickel-phosphorus silicon-carbide coating which should last the life time of the engine. If any cylinder is badly scratched,scuffed or scored, the cylinder block must be renewed. The bores surface should not be honed.
There is also Zero glazing to the cylinders and crosshatching everywhere which you can see in the video link I put up, but it looks even better than that in real life.
I did a quick bit of reading on this last night and believe it is commonly known as Nikasil,
This was actually no help at all as it seemed around 50/50 for and against. The coating is very Tough but also slightly porous when the likes of Stone honing tools are used, bits of the stone can be absorbed by the nickel coating and be released later reducing the piston ring life span.
The safest way seems to be, clean with a red scotch bright pad and warm soapy water/Contact cleaner/carb cleaner lightly to remove any light glazing and then give a thorough clean with WD-40 with a light coloured cloth to make sure no more dirt is seen.
With Honing Nikasil this should only be done with Diamond honing and by an expert who has worked with the material before as it is super thin. If any damage is seen in the Nikasil it should be binned and replaced. If good crosshatching is still present then it seems a good clean is all that is needed.
A learning curve for me, no way telling you your business. ive spent some time reading on nikasil , bottom line is cleanliness not honing.I like to learn this stuff. Seems your cleaning is correct with after WD40 a a isopryl alcohol to finish. White spirits i guess. Lube rings up to refit, running in oil ?? At least youve got Diavel to ride. Amazing bikes, really miss mine.
Quote from: grog on Monday, 13 October 2025, 06:55 PMA learning curve for me, no way telling you your business. ive spent some time reading on nikasil , bottom line is cleanliness not honing.I like to learn this stuff. Seems your cleaning is correct with after WD40 a a isopryl alcohol to finish. White spirits i guess. Lube rings up to refit, running in oil ?? At least youve got Diavel to ride. Amazing bikes, really miss mine.
Hi Grog,
Yes will be using running in oil for the first 600mls or so just to give it the best chance. And then change to oil recommended on this thread and ditch the Motul oil.
Sadly I sold the X-Diavel which is more the cruiser one after 6 yrs. Again a very unreliable bike for me. And went brand new on a Kawasaki ZH2 200 bhp :-) as it comes with 4yrs Warranty.
I bought the GSX1400 as have always liked them when seen out and about but this has been by far the worst bike I have ever owned lol. But still lovely and comfortable when ridden and just has something about it.
I have also enjoyed working on it and learnt a lot but would be very upset if this was my only mode of transport.
If this works it will be like a brand new bike hahaha
Im sure itll be fixed and then youll learn to like it.I think weve all owned hate bikes, just too difficult.Ive had lots and maybe just two really bad,Honda Elsinore & Norton Commando,both just shouldve been landfill.
Well !!!!
I finished the rebuild this weekend and it fired right up. I took it out for a 50 mile ride Yesterday to start the running in procedure and when I got back I had to make a slight adjustment to the throttle cable so thought I would just check inside Cylinder 3 & 4 and I knew what was coming as it it was doing it still on the ride.
But you guessed it they both had oil on the pistons and the same amount on each!! :furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:
I assume 1 & 2 will be exactly the same but at that point being utterly exhausted with it I threw in the towel and went indoors to sulk for the rest of the evening lol
Sulking sounds the best plan at that point!
Bloody hell! I think the bike has a message for you, it's trying to tell you it identifies as a 2 stroke, you've got a trans GSX! :onya:
On a more optimistic note, you've only just started the running in process, get the 600 - 1000 miles done & do the oil change & see how it is then. 50 miles the rings won't have bedded in yet. Fingers crossed. :onya:
Xdiavel, so much money/ work no result. Just cant understand,how the hell can oil be getting in? What to do, no clues from me.Breather is clear/ been checked? Pairs hose from air box, stick a marble in it.Yours and Erics are just mongrel pia bikes. Anything else youd like to trade it in on?
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 11 November 2025, 05:17 PMXdiavel, so much money/ work no result. Just cant understand,how the hell can oil be getting in? What to do, no clues from me.Breather is clear/ been checked? Pairs hose from air box, stick a marble in it.Yours and Erics are just mongrel pia bikes. Anything else youd like to trade it in on?
Hi Grog,
Yeah tell me about. I bought this bike with 7.5k miles for £5700 so wasn't cheap but was very clean, well for a GSX anyway. I have invested way too much time and money into this bike, Although have enjoyed parts of it. It owes me a lot, and was going to be a keeper for at least 10yrs so wanted it being it's best.
Things I have done to the bike, Most work carried out by myself.
Powder coated the wheels
New wheel bearings
New Tyres
Thistle brushed front forks to look like OEM, not polished
New fork seals
Refurbed front brake calliper's
New Brembo pads (Awesome)
Painted front Mud guard
New dial surrounds
New Dial backlights (White) with integrated gear indicator
2x brand new OEM Exhaust headers as the originals had some dents.
New Renthal Silver bars
Brand new OEM side panel cover
Polished myself, both side engine covers.
Painted myself Clutch cover.
Painted feet heal plates.
Pipeworx exhaust that comes on and off depending on mood lol
Heated grips
New sprockets and chain
New indicators
LED bulb change
( Have had many compliments off people on how it looks like it has just left the showroom especially when OEM pipes are fitted ) :-)
Engine work to find oil issue,
Carried out all valve stem seal replacement with engine still in situ (No difference)
Checked every sensor all ok, If not in spec brought back to spec.
Changed plugs several times
Changed Pairs O rings in head ( No difference ) Also changed rubber again on rebuild.
Checked air box and PCV hose - All clean and no sign of oil mist etc. Checked hose again after rebuild and can feel light air pulsing out of it, But this was when cold.
Checked all exhaust valves which were bone dry with no signs of oil leaking over them from the Stem seals.
Engine pulls hard and smooth like new.
Engine rebuild inc all new rings,Gaskets,seals etc ( still the same on ALL 4 PISTONS )
I feel my only options now are,
Keep running it in with the mineral oil and hope it was the rings all along and will sort itself (doubtful)
Just keep it and live with it. Only does 2k mls a year due to another bike so oil burning/consumption will not be an issue.
Wait another year or so when something expensive and shiny comes out and trade it in with my other bike to get a better deal.
Carry on fault finding to a fix - Had enough at this point tbh as it's all still guess work.
IMHO, complete the running in process before you give in, at least you will get some respite from things and enjoy some riding. :onya:
D.D.
Hi all,
I need to run something past you all again.
Because I have changed all the valve stem oil seals and now the rings, My attention has now started to slide back towards fuelling mainly due to this being on all 4 cylinders.
So over the weekend I bought a cheapo air fuel gauge and rigged it up and stuck the O2 sensor in one of the pipes. Strangely it is showing me it is running very lean at idle. It runs rich on cold start which I would expect to see at around 11.2 ish but when it comes off cold start the gauge drops right down to 18.2 ish and showing very lean. (This is in cold weather 5 degrees)
Now when it passes around 2k rpm (I assume when it comes off the TPS system) It goes super rich holding RPM at approx 2.5k rpm at around 11.8 and when it got upto 80 degrees normally when it starts smoking the fuel/air ratio was off the gauge at 10.0
I understand optimally engines should sit around 13.1 etc.
Can I ask your thoughts
EDIT* Quick note I ran a compression test also and all cylinders were around 180psi well 3 at 180 and 1 at 185psi so looks likt the rings have bed in.
Hmmm, the main things that control the fuelling is the oil temp sensor (behind the barrels) and to a lesser extent the MAP sensor (between frame tubes at the top) when on low throttle/revs so I'd expect it to be active just holding the revs up in neutral like that. Then the TPS at higher throttle openings as the MAP maxes out.
To a lesser extent the external air pressure sensor (identical to the MAP but on the side of the airbox) and the external air temp sensor (also on the side of the airbox) come into play.
I'm assuming your PAIRs system is removed for these readings to mean anything.
I can't recall now, but fuel pressure is ok? as I used to get black smoke on the power when my high pressure filter was blocked. Because the low pressure was causing a poor spray pattern from the injectors. Mind you it stopped of the throttle unlike yours.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 17 November 2025, 10:25 PMHmmm, the main things that control the fuelling is the oil temp sensor (behind the barrels) and to a lesser extent the MAP sensor (between frame tubes at the top) when on low throttle/revs so I'd expect it to be active just holding the revs up in neutral like that. Then the TPS at higher throttle openings as the MAP maxes out.
To a lesser extent the external air pressure sensor (identical to the MAP but on the side of the airbox) and the external air temp sensor (also on the side of the airbox) come into play.
I'm assuming your PAIRs system is removed for these readings to mean anything.
I can't recall now, but fuel pressure is ok? as I used to get black smoke on the power when my high pressure filter was blocked. Because the low pressure was causing a poor spray pattern from the injectors. Mind you it stopped of the throttle unlike yours.
Yes I think the fuel pressure is fine as never had any issues on full throttle etc. Yes I did block the pairs the weekend albeit just blocked the hole on the airbox where the pipe joins onto, Nothing more so it cannot suck air out the airbox now.
I tested the oil sensor earlier in this thread and think that read ok from memory. The only sensor I have never checked is the external air temp sensor as don't have the prongs for the reader to a measurement.
MMMM
Interestingly I am now getting zero readings from the sensor. I had to fiddle a fair bit with the multimeter to get one before but seemed to be in range. I wonder if this has an intermittant fault :confused1: :confused1:
But no FI light on the dash. It should be quite easy to get a reading imo as the silver connection tabs are quite visable and can get the multimeter prongs to touch them easily. I even cut some wires and stuck them in the plug and couldn't get anything off those either.
Going to name this bike Christine as I am sure it's possessed :lol:
I know the oil temp sensor had to be disconnected on my K2 to get a FI light on, even when it was massively out of range. Oddly enough, despite what the manual says the bike wouldn't run without the sensor plugged in.
Bit of a pain to removevthe oil temp sensor, hard to get the allen key into the tight spot behind the cylinders. Once out, follow the test in the manual by putting it in water and heating it up, you can then watch the resistance change as it heats up. If no change, the sensor is buggered.
A cheat way is to use a propane flame near but not touching the sensor, it will pick up the radiated heat and also change resistance.
Also check your fuel pump pressure regulator, this can cause all sorts of fuelling issues....
Xdiavel, maybe the clues were staring at us all along. Very rich at 80 degrees due to faulty oil temp sensor??I was also thinking clutch switch but dont think it alters fuel after 3k revs.Hows yours now Eric BTW?
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 18 November 2025, 04:05 PMXdiavel, maybe the clues were staring at us all along. Very rich at 80 degrees due to faulty oil temp sensor??I was also thinking clutch switch but dont think it alters fuel after 3k revs.Hows yours now Eric BTW?
Honestly I think I am just clutching at straws at this point, Turns out my meter was playing up and giving me false/no readings and got my hopes up :cry2:
I read a thread the other night about somebody with similar issues but with a car.
He eventually found it to be the spark plugs of all things being the colder type. He changed them out and no more wet pistons.
That led me off now thinking fuelling and got my hopes up again of a cure, but the sensor does look to be fine and reading ok.
I also checked the IAT and that looks to be working fine too.
Can the TPS/STPS mess with fuelling if not set correctly or faulty. I mean it runs perfect and cold start works bang on the money so think they're fine.
Again the fuel ratio meter can be a red herring for what I am reading as it is only hanging out the tail pipe as the holes are stupidly small. But this can suck air pulses back and show a lean mixture and maybe the other side of things that when the bike is revved it has to pass all through the baffles etc so could possibly give another false reading. Who knows.
I want to just walk away from it but I cant let it beat me :grin:
Quote from: Xdiavel on Tuesday, 18 November 2025, 07:06 PMCan the TPS/STPS mess with fuelling if not set correctly or faulty. I mean it runs perfect and cold start works bang on the money so think they're fine.
Yes, I've had a few TPS fail at a particular throttle range & screw up the fueling at that point. I could reproduce rough running by using the right amount of throttle every time though, so it's easy enough to check that way.
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 18 November 2025, 04:05 PMHows yours now Eric BTW?
Aarrrgh, still carrying on. Put it all back together and gave it a wash and polish, scrubbed up ok actually, it was in need of it. The Bavarian Mistress got a tub too. Then ran the 1402, still pops and seems to get a pulse back through the inlet valves, sounds mostly from #1 and #2, that is the LH of the bike.
Then I got thinking about fueling as well, so yesterday I pulled the efi pump out again and stripped it down yet again. Rust flakes in the teabag, plus some in the external hp filter (doing its job!), flushed out the oem hp filter again (still black crud coming out) and put it all back together. Fitted my original pressure regulator in case the quantum one was full of crud (which I found out after it wadnt), fired it up, still the same. Will swap back to original injectors just to check again, but after that it will be looking at valves and possibly head gasket? Its odd, because compression is great (within spec when cold) and valve clearances are also in spec. May check TPS again, but it was reading correct last time (its a new genuine one), and may try to check the TB balance first.
Keep going Eric, you'll get there.
Said before, dont think mechanical. Waste of time head off etc. Management problem.Popping back thru air intake is usually lean mixture, you have checked pressure?? Try a shot of carby cleaner into air box as you open throttle, any change? Doesnt help the cause but puts you on a track, is it just lean causing it?
I recall mine had some horrid looking cracks in the rubber intake manifolds, they never leaked but it wouldn't amaze me if they were starting to split on some bikes now they're getting old.
Again, a spray around those rubbers , carb cleaner. Youll notice any change if leaking.
Thanks fellas, will try the carb cleaner thing, mate across the road has a smoke tester, may borrow that. Can't see any cracks in the intakes, but worth a check. Also agree re mechanical, as timing, comp etc is good. I always thought popping or noise back through is a rich mixture, as its detonating too early from too much fuel during valve overlap?
You'll be glad you don't have a Gen 2 Rocket Eric, they pop & bang on decel all the time. I quite like it, doesn't bother me at all, just part of the bike. I know it annoys some of the guys & they can basically eliminate it by adjusting the A/F values in the custom tune. I've no idea on that as I've never had to it (was already done on my bike), but, if adjusting the A/F values fixes it, maybe a PC5 or PC6 with auto tune will sort it?
I believe a lean mixture can cause it too as it's running hotter and the gasses are that hot they ignite the oxygen they meet in the exhaust as they leave the cylinder. Hence a leaking exhaust often backfires where the fresh air gets in.
Same reason 14's pop & crackle less on the overrun once you get rid of the PAIRs too.
Firstly, Apologies to the op for the hijack.
Two new areas for me to check: leak from exhaust (Akrapovic headers) and inlet trumpets where the throttle bodies mount.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Thursday, 20 November 2025, 09:33 AMFirstly, Apologies to the op for the hijack.
Two new areas for me to check: leak from exhaust (Akrapovic headers) and inlet trumpets where the throttle bodies mount.
Pairs plates or the blanking plates too, as they link to the exhaust ports.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Thursday, 20 November 2025, 09:33 AMFirstly, Apologies to the op for the hijack.
Two new areas for me to check: leak from exhaust (Akrapovic headers) and inlet trumpets where the throttle bodies mount.
No problem at all Eric, If it gets everybody chatting and passing ideas around then the Forum is doing it's job imo.
The only time I have heard of popping etc back through the intake especially on carbs was the timing being way out of wack. Has that all been checked ie cam shaft marks all line up with the crank gear etc. It hasn't been fitted with an ignition advancer etc has it over the years?
Chat GPT has some suggestions,
A GSX1400 popping back through the intake manifold typically points to an issue with the air-fuel mixture or ignition timing. This "backfire" or "pop" can happen under load, during deceleration, or when the bike is idling. There are several possible causes for this issue:
1. Fuel System Issues:
Leaking or Blocked Fuel Injectors: Dirty or clogged injectors can cause lean conditions, which might lead to backfiring. If the fuel supply isn't adequate or consistent, it can cause unburned fuel to ignite in the intake manifold.
Incorrect Fuel Pressure: If the fuel pump is weak or the regulator is malfunctioning, it could result in too little fuel getting into the combustion chamber, causing lean running and backfiring.
Air/Fuel Ratio Problems: If the air/fuel mixture is too lean (too much air, not enough fuel), it can cause combustion to occur at the wrong time, leading to backfiring through the intake.
2. Ignition Timing:
Retarded Ignition Timing: If the spark timing is too advanced or retarded, the combustion event can happen at the wrong point in the engine cycle, causing pops or backfires through the intake. This could be due to faulty timing settings, a malfunctioning ECU, or issues with the ignition system.
Faulty Spark Plugs or Coils: Worn spark plugs or malfunctioning ignition coils can cause weak or inconsistent sparks, leading to incomplete combustion, which could result in backfiring.
3. Vacuum Leaks:
Intake Manifold Leaks: A vacuum leak in the intake manifold or any of the vacuum hoses can lead to unmetered air entering the engine, causing a lean condition and backfiring.
Throttle Body or Carburetor Issues: If the throttle body isn't sealing properly or there's an issue with the carburetor, the engine could get excess air, leading to lean misfires or backfires.
4. Exhaust System Blockages or Leaks:
Exhaust Leaks Near the Head: If there's an exhaust leak near the cylinder head, it could allow exhaust gases to flow back into the intake, causing popping sounds.
Exhaust Valve Issues: Worn or damaged exhaust valves can result in incomplete combustion, allowing fuel to pass through the exhaust system unburned, which could cause backfiring.
5. ECU or Tuning Problems:
ECU Mapping: If the bike has been tuned or modified and the ECU mapping is incorrect for the new setup (e.g., aftermarket exhaust, intake mods), it could be causing the engine to run lean or rich, leading to backfires.
Fuel Map Issue (for carbs or fuel-injected bikes): Incorrect fuel maps due to a bad tune or sensor malfunction could also be responsible.
Diagnostic Steps:
Check the Spark Plugs: Look for signs of lean or rich burning on the plugs. Replace any plugs that look worn or damaged.
Inspect Fuel System: Check the fuel injectors, fuel pressure, and fuel filter. Make sure the fuel is flowing properly.
Check for Vacuum Leaks: Inspect the intake manifold, hoses, and seals for any leaks. A simple smoke test can help locate leaks.
Verify Ignition Timing: Make sure the timing is correctly set. If you're using an aftermarket ignition system, check that it's programmed correctly.
Examine Exhaust for Leaks: Look for any exhaust leaks, especially near the cylinder head.
Ok,
So Today's update ;)
i bought an iridium spark plug just to test on one cylinder and give it the best chance of combustion. I ran Her up on fast idle and let it tick over for several mins and took a look in the hole. No change seen.
I then thought lets eliminate fuelling out of the equation once and for all, so I ran the bike with the injector unplugged and no spark plug to see if I could clear the wetness off the top of the piston and yes the crown went pretty much dry.
I then put the plug back in but left the Injector unplugged and ran it for another several minutes and removed the plug. And yep the piston was wet again. Trouble is the oil is new and clear so hard to differentiate but it can only be oil at this point.
So the only option is to carry on the running in process, Prob next year now as winter has turned up with a vengeance. If that fails which I am pretty much 90% sure it will then I am lost as to what it is!!!
Good elimination process. AFAIK The only oil passages to the combustion chamber would be via the crank case vent port to the airbox and in, or via leaking pairs, past the rings or valve stem seals. The latter two i think you've sorted (apart from the bedding in).
Are the rings gapped correctly and gaps offset to each other?
Correct size oil and compression/sealing rings (and in the right order on the piston skirt?)
Try venting crankcase to atmosphere and blocking the airbox inlet point, check for oil inside the airbox.
Maybe an Italian tune-up up after the 1000km running in?
Best of luck mate
No more ideas either Xdiavel. Madness. A crack in head, wouldnt be all 4 cylinders.My whole mechanical life, 1972 started apprenticeship, this one has me stumped. Has to be an answer.Its oil in each cylinder from running the motor. Youve blocked the usual culprits, rings&stem seals. Cant see how pairs can possibly contribute oil. Motor breathes good? No crankcase vapour getting in? You eliminated fuel by disconnecting injector.Mate,nothing left except the mongrel thing causing the problem,mongrel thing that i cant see possible.
Oil grade being too thin that it doesn't get scraped off the bore and ends up on the piston, rings not gapped right,but then compression would be shite, or oil getting past valve stem seals is all I can think of.
Do you see oil even when its at temperature?
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Friday, 21 November 2025, 07:38 PMOil grade being too thin that it doesn't get scraped off the bore and ends up on the piston, rings not gapped right,but then compression would be shite, or oil getting past valve stem seals is all I can think of.
Do you see oil even when its at temperature?
Hi Eric,
It has Mineral running in oil at the moment but before I was running 10w 50 and still did it. All the rings are OEM and spaced correctly. The valve stem seals were all OEM from Fowlers also.
Crank pressure is ok out the pipe, not as much as if you take the filler cap off but then it's not supposed to be. I have blocked the outlet out of the Airbox for the pairs to eliminate that and the airbox inside is like new.
It's all very weird
Definitely weird thats for sure.
Just a thought have you checked the 2 small o'rings that sit between the head but above the pairs valves as they have been known to cause problems and oil in the pairs/valves area in the past 🤔🤫
Quote from: seth on Saturday, 22 November 2025, 09:16 AMJust a thought have you checked the 2 small o'rings that sit between the head but above the pairs valves as they have been known to cause problems and oil in the pairs/valves area in the past 🤔🤫
Hi Seth,
Yes mate that was the first bit of troubleshooting I did last year when I first noticed this issue. And also replaced them again during this rebuild to make sure.
Another test I did this weekend was to remove the oil filler cap to elliminate the crank case pressue but alas there was still wet pistons at the end of the test.
I also ran a borescope down the intake to look at the inlet valves and they were bone dry and lovely and clean,
So after all this I would now say 100% it is not coming from the Top of the engine.
All my hopes are now that the running in the oil conrol rings solves this.
To add to this when checking the throttle bodies I manually moved the flaps to get a reading and the sensor was in range. Although the flaps were 3/4 shut. Now it runs all over the place on cold start for some reason. The night before it ran ok but went out the following morning and would start up to 2k rpm the instantly drop to 1100rpm and the Fi light comes on.
My biggest worry now is that I have had the tank.plugs/panels off so many times now I am going to break something else. I mean the tank nearly fell of the bike the other day and nearly gave me a heart attack as I just caught it. (Full tank too)
I just want to sort this new issue and put it away until next year as have grown a real hatred for it atm lol.
I keep looking at other retro style bikes but nothing comes close imo I like the Kawasaki 900rs but with the 1400 you have an original and a big engine to boot.
Mate, run it in hard,off n on the throttle,was our old story, change oil, drain cooler as well, if it still smokes, trade it in. Its a bit like marriage, if you try your guts out, you have, still doesnt work, start anew. Cost me a house but best move i ever made.
Well,
My new issue has kept my mind off the oil problem.
When troubleshooting the fuel issue I thought it may have had and throttle ballancing I messed up and turned the ballancing screw for the Secondary throttle valves in and since then the bike keeps tripping an Fi light when very cold. Fasy idle reves up to 2k rpm runs like that for 5 seconds then it just drops fast to idle and trips a code.
I have played with that screw and the fast idle screw to no evail. If I loosen that ballancing screw all the way out it sometimes runs fast idle fine but the STPS looses it's range of volts and ohms.
If I do fiddle to get it sort of running without tripping the fast idle is all over the place ie it will run for approx 30 then drop to idle so I think oh that's good then it has a change of mind and starts revving back up on the fast idle to 1500rpm or so like it got it wrong.
Cold start worked perfect before I messed this up.
I did the proceedure in the manual and got both sensors in range etc but instantly tripped out. It logs a c28 stva code but read it can also be due to adjustments being out.
If I put both TPS & STPS back to where they originally was and adjust the ballancer screw between TB's 3 & 4 ( Sensor takes the reading off 4 )so the STPS comes into range ie 0.8v it just trips out after 5 secs
Am I missing something here? Worked fine before that screw was turned and now cannot get it right for love nor money. I really do not want to take the throttle bodies off again but looks like I may have to now to get the secondary valves alligned. If they're just a tiny bit out, Could it cause this?
I'm lost. I do know though, that there is a screw in that area the factory says not to touch, (so why put a screw there?) bound to be that one you've adjusted.
Hooli or Eric would be my go to on this one.
Hmmm, It could be the little magnet inside the STVA unit, i remember Seth posting about this. You can get to it and use superglue to glue the magnet bits back together and in the right spot on the shaft. Fiddling with that screw just changes the fast idle, however if you've gone too far, could have damaged the magnet or its location on the shaft?
I've found that with TPS the important setting is the closed throttle at 1100 Ohm, whilst for the STPS, it's the open throttle at 3800 Ohm.
Have a search on here fir Seth's post and excellent photos of his stva magnet fix.
Just a thought, after you have made the adjustments have you disconnected the battery? I think you are supposed to for 20-30 mins to allow residual current drain, then after reconnecting the battery, switch on ignition with kill switch in the run position & open/close the throttle twice before starting it resets the ECU values. It's a while since I read the book but sure that was the procedure
Sorry, I did write that whilst waiting for my flight to Site, it was a bit early, so perhaps it didn't make sense. The erratic stva behavior can be from the magnet being broken. All the fast idle screw does is provide the reference point for the STVA. But, if the signal is distorted, it wont work properly. A quick way to check if the stva is working is with the air filter removed, ignition on but kill switch off, look inside the airbox, then press the red kill switch down, the fuel pump should prime and the secondary throttle move through their range of motion, being actuated by the stva AFAIK. If they don't move, or not fully, then best bet is the stva magnet being buggered. You can also hear it, but sometimes gets drowned out by the fuel pump priming. Hope my ramblings make sense now.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Thursday, 04 December 2025, 10:31 PMSorry, I did write that whilst waiting for my flight to Site, it was a bit early, so perhaps it didn't make sense. The erratic stva behavior can be from the magnet being broken. All the fast idle screw does is provide the reference point for the STVA. But, if the signal is distorted, it wont work properly. A quick way to check if the stva is working is with the air filter removed, ignition on but kill switch off, look inside the airbox, then press the red kill switch down, the fuel pump should prime and the secondary throttle move through their range of motion, being actuated by the stva AFAIK. If they don't move, or not fully, then best bet is the stva magnet being buggered. You can also hear it, but sometimes gets drowned out by the fuel pump priming. Hope my ramblings make sense now.
Makes perfect sense Eric, Thank you.
I am sure they're pretty much inline as I can feel them through the airbox. It does perform it's little dance on start where it quickly goes one way then back the other way and then lifts the primary TB's up slightly for cold start.
I have ran the engine up so it's hot as it's building up a lot of condensation in the exhaust with all the cold start testing on and off, But now that is even playing up.
It idles when hot then after approx 1-2 mins the secondary actuator randomly revs the bike to approx 1500rpm for a few seconds then it goes back down and runs ok then it may randomly do it again but the second time is a bit hit and miss.
I have set both STP & STPS up in their respective ranges and and turned the sensor wheels when they have been removed and the Volts/Ohms are smooth throughout the ranges.
Sounds like something is opening and closing, causing the ecu to think it's cold, hence revs up, 'it' opens again & the ecu thinks it's now warm so idle goes back down.
Pretty sure the engine gets it's temp reading from the oil sensor. It wouldn't be unknown for one of those to play up. I wonder if it's that sensor or the wires to it maybe?
Or could it be the oil thermostat opening & closing allowing the hot engine oil to flow into the oil cooler then closing off as soon as the cool oil from the cooler gets into the engine & cools the oil temp sensor.
I'm just trying to think what would cause a warm / hot engine to go back into warm up mode. I wonder if it would keep doing it after the engine has been run for 5 minutes or ridden around a while? That way all the oil would be hot & no much cooler oil flowing back in to the mix.
I'd have a look at that sensor & the wires for sure though.
I had a C28 code for a long time. Only resolved it by putting new genuine TPS and STPS sensors in. From Webike Japan, about half the price compared to the stealers but still not cheap. These sensors tend to fail due to the little spring inside them becoming weak,then they don't track properly and send spurious voltage signals to the ecu. Hooli had similar. I remember testing this with the sensor off the bike and hooked up to a multimeter, watching the ohms change steadily as you turn the small internal wheel (the bit that the throttle spindle usually turns) then suddenly the ohms drop off or go real high, then settle down again.
Since putting new sensors in, no more C28 codes, and fast idle works as it should when its cold
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Eric you have the patience of Jobe.
I've owned my 2001 GSX from new and had minor problems over 24 years. Servicing and replacing worn parts over its 178,000 + kilometres of travel.
If mine gave me only a few of the issues you've identified I'd have burnt it or made it a boat anchor long ago. SERIOUSLY 😳
Agree Chris,Eric & Xdiavel patience plus. I once had a mower that stopped after 10 minutes. I reckon i replaced every part, last time it stopped, in the wagon and taken to the tip. That fixed it
Hi All, Has anybody got a video of the secondary throttle in operation at all?
On the right hand side of the bike between throttle bodies 3 & 4 you will see the ballancer screw down low between them with the screw head facing up. You can watch this when you turn the ignition on.
Can you let me know if it feel completely free from open to closed and if it does a full smooth sweep please.
When I turn the ignition on it quickly shoots up to the closed possision then instantly drops down and struggles to push back the last 10% to wide open, Well not struggles just slow with resistance.
Also can you see them moving when revved at idle. Mine moves a few mm when reved but on GSXR vids I have seen they open smoothly a fair way at idle when revved up and work together with the primaries.
Chhers
I know what you are talking about, will try to get video this weekend for you.
Mine cycles through smoothly, haven't watched it work with the primaries though.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Friday, 05 December 2025, 09:27 PMI know what you are talking about, will try to get video this weekend for you.
Mine cycles through smoothly, haven't watched it work with the primaries though.
Thanks Eric,
That would be much appriciated :) I have just stuck my hand in the air box and butterflies do more of a violent flick than a smooth motion .
I would ecpect them to work like this tbh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5saSSAIiuk
What I have seen is the quick action, with then a little wiggle at the end of its cycle. Will try to capture that.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Sunday, 07 December 2025, 11:20 AMWhat I have seen is the quick action, with then a little wiggle at the end of its cycle. Will try to capture that.
Hi Eric,
Thanks for checking for me, sounds the same as mine. I think my actuator is actually knackered. I checked the continuity across the plug and reads all over the place, the doc states between 4.8 and 7.2 ohms but mine reads 0.00 at full open and 0.00 at rest and 0.00 at full closed and the readings are all over the place in-between full and closed it jumps from 0.5 upto 16 and everything in-between, certainly not stable at 4.8-7.2 hence why I think it starts revving itself . Just cannot understand what caused it.
As I only turned the ballance screw between 3&4! But then thats this bike all over :facepalm:
More dramas Mate.Not available as a seperate part. Snapey has write up on here re gluing magnets have also seen where just dry solder joints.No first hand, just read. A mongrel to get to?? Probably with your luck.
Quote from: grog on Monday, 08 December 2025, 10:54 AMMore dramas Mate.Not available as a seperate part. Snapey has write up on here re gluing magnets have also seen where just dry solder joints.No first hand, just read. A mongrel to get to?? Probably with your luck.
Hi mate,
Sorry I need more sleep and missing silly things now with this bike. I always tripple check my findings due to user error mainly lol
I checked again last night and had the meter set to Kohms and not ohms to read it, That then come up at 5.7 ohms on the actuator so now that looks to be ok, Just when I get my hopes up eh it knocks me down.
I did pull the throttle bodies out slightly this weekend and lined all the butterflies up correctly. I then triple checked the TPS and STPS through their ranges both in volts and ohms and looked good with no gaps in the readings.
I set them up to volts and not ohms as sugested by Hooli a few times but strangely if I set the TPS up at the sensor plug I get 1.1 volts but the Ohms read approx 1.345 ohms If I set the ohms to 1.1 kohms the volts are like 0.75 ish. this seems quite a big difference to me or is that ok? anyhow it is set to 1.1 volts atm with correct range.
I did a live test this morning on the stps (did not trip out on start up but very mild) It revved to 2k rpm (3.3v) ish and come down to idle, the volts hardly changed but then the arm barley turns much. As soon as it come fully off it was at 2.9v then it just slowly revs it's self back up to 1500rpm and the volts raised also to coincide with this upto approx 3.4v then slowly back down where it continued to idle again fine for a couple of mins until I had to shut it off. As stated before it now normally idles for 20secs then slowly revs up to approc 1500rpm and slowly back down with the Actuator turning the secondaries to raise the rpm, It can do this several times.
I have contact cleaner turning up today so will give all the plugs a good saoking although they all look nice and clean.
Sorry for such a long thread guys, You lot must be very bored with me by now and really do appreciate all the great advise.
I am a Network Engineer by trade and don't like to be beaten by things lol
All the best
Have you checked the manual idle on the lhs of the bike? Could be wound in too high, so this forces the rpm high, the STAV then trying to drive the rpm down?
My current settings are all based on Ohms, and the TPS is at 1100 closed, the rpms set at the same (by eye as the gauge only has 500rpm increments), with the STPS set at 3800 open, all tb's balanced (easier to balance at >2000rpm)
Didn't get time to lift the tank and take video inside the airbox today, sorry.
I dont mind the lenghty thread.
"Your" error keeps us all busy and up to date with troubleshooting an 1400.
I am still not convinced if the test you did with unplugged injectors is indicative of a correct closing injector. If it was to leak .. wouldnt the moving pistons help to evaporate any leaking fuel?
A correct spray patern is also important for a good burn.
Just thinking out loud. Not questioning you, just questioning my brainfarts
Just wondering, has anyone removed stva and fitted gadget to plug to stop codes.Secondaries either removed or jammed open. Obviously no more fast idle, just fully manual control. Have read a bit on gixxers& sv where works fine. Havent seen first hand 14 review.
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 09 December 2025, 04:34 PMJust wondering, has anyone removed stva and fitted gadget to plug to stop codes.Secondaries either removed or jammed open. Obviously no more fast idle, just fully manual control. Have read a bit on gixxers& sv where works fine. Havent seen first hand 14 review.
This is something I am contemplating for quite some time, too!
As an example of how implementing that 'full manual' control: there is no secondaries on MVAgusta's (at least the 4 cyl. ones), and fast idle is driven manually at the throttle tube with a small cam that very slightly turns 'open' the throttle tube and therefore slightly opens the primaries -- i.e. the same thing as the STVA does in addition to close the secondaries-- and that gets back 'naturally' as soon as you use the throttle tube to ride as normal.
Spongey, my ducatis had no fast idle, no choke either. 40mm carbs, just flood float bowl for cold, fast idle was a wooden clothes peg kept in pocket, tapered so just slid it between throttle and switch block.Worked perfectly.No ecu involved, just mine. :grin:
Quote from: Will14 on Thursday, 09 October 2025, 06:50 AMProbably not the case but whats the history of the bike, you mention no power commander, could a previous owner have had the ECU flashed & it is causing over fueling at higher temps as has been mentioned previously? depending on what ECU you have fitted (some have one big plug others have two different size plugs) I have a spare ECU off a K2 that I would be willing to post to you depending where you are to rule an ECU fault out if that helps. All I would ask is that you post it back to me once tested
Cheers, Pete
Hi Will,
I was just wondering if this offer is still on the table? Not for the oil issue but for the new STVA issue, All sensors are checking out ok so at this stage it can only be the Throttle bodies/STVA or the ECU as it randomly revs up on it's own by the STVA so if not the ECU then the STVA is knackered :-(
I will obviously pay postage both ways and throw you in a drink for the kind gesture. Thanks
I am going to take it out for a blast Saturday to see if that helps settle things down first all being well.
Kind Regards
Sorry I meant Pete not Will, Was using your user name.
OMG Peeps,
Think I have fixed this Throttle body issue.
After spending nearly 2 weeks straight tweeking this and that and thinking I had found the issue at every turn especially moisture in the ECU plug, But again no go. I have tweaked every STP/STPS and cold start screw more times than I would have liked to admit.
The STVA sweep looked good and felt free so I could not believe something was causing this issue from a simple turn of a screw.
Anyhow this is what I think took place and me finding the issue.
Wrong screw turned ( my fault -Distracted ) Warmish day, turned screw back to where I thought it was. - No issues seen
Following Morning (cold 2 degrees) cold start runs on bike trips with C28 STVA code.
Try adjusting screw more as it must be missaligned and causing the code.
Spend Days adjusting but sometimes works/sometimes doesn't, during this time I was checking the STPS and adjusting and removing it for a clean/lube. No further C28 code seen but get a new symptom of the bike revving it's self up at idle several times and back down, This continued.
C28 code returns every morning when cold.
Long story shorter lol I thought before the weekend when I had plans to take the Throttle bodies off and tear them down and contemplate buying another set, I would remove the STPS again completely to inspect. At that point I turned the ignition on to see the sweep and adjust the sensor live while in my hand (just to see if anything changed) The sweep bolted up and down really fast. I then used my hand to do the same and felt silky smooth. It was ok ish before but felt a little notchy but just thought that was the resistance of the motor as had nothing to compare it with :-(
I thought EH! why is the sensor putting so much pressure on the STVA. I looked inside to find a rubber seal pushed up the back and when putting the sensor on this pressed against the spindle and caused drag which the STVA/ECU doesn't like and throws up a C28.
The reason it kept rasing the revs was because the range was off by a small amount from where it should rest as was binding slightly so the ECU kept making adjustment to find it's 'Home' position.
Bottom line, the STPS seal has to be fitted back to the sensor first before putting it back on. To me in a dark garage it just looked like an internal piece of the body.
Once fitted correctly the STVA now moves really freely and so far 2 tests in, No more hunting at idle. Just got fingers crossed no C28 tomorrow Morning.
I hope I haven't spoke too soon but just soo happy atm :boogie:
so STVA throttle body moved out of allignment between 3&4 =c28
pressure on STVA shaft =C28
both Together = one big head ache and stress.
Ahh those seals, they often stay on the TB too. So you have to look out for them when replacing the SPS or TPS.
Great you got to the bottom of that bit. Go give it a run now for a few hundred k's & see how she likes it.
I assume you mean the little o ring that sits on the STPS (and TPS) and seals it on the spindle? If so, yes yiu need to be aware. When I changed the old TPS out, tried to fit the new one and could not get the sensor body to seat home against the spindle housing. The old o ring seal was still stuck inside its bore. Removed with a seal pick, a dab of white lithium grease on the new one and all is well.
When mine was having issues,I reached out to Phil Tainton from PTR, well known Suzuki engine builder and race bike developer, he also mentioned that these orings get sticky and affect the travel of the sensor ring.
Great find, glad you got it sorted XDiavel. Let us know how you go.