I'm looking at doing a few mods on my new 14 which will require some fueling tuning (full exhaust and Yoshi cam). I was wondering though, how does a power commander compar to an ECU reflash? S as n ECU reflash can apparently remove the 4 degree ignition retard in lower gears (I'm happy to be corrected).
So why do people prefer the Power Commander over an ECU reflash done on a dyno
A power commander goes wrong you replace it and re-add your saved map (everyone should always ask for or save the map in thier own bike)
A reflash it goes wrong you need a new ecu and another reflash .
I don't know anyone who's had an ECU reflash. In theory it's better as more can be changed, but I think the only options out there are for K5 onwards bikes (I recall someone posting Woolwich racing only do that for example).
These bikes are old so most mods were done years ago, or just copy what people have done before. I'd go on the price difference & if you got the kit to change the flash or not? With a Power Commander you can tweak it yourself later, if you pay someone to flash the bike you can't.
I did a ECU flash on my HD, but I bought the kit to do it so I can change it later (as I did two days later for a better map) and it gives me access to fault codes, although that doesn't apply on 14s.
Had my original ECU flashed by Hoegee....a dutch Suzuki Importer who also does some racing. Flashing was done with a thing called Yoshi box and with this he was able to adjust some settings in the original ECU. Bike ran much smoother and gained a few hp and nm, problem was that there were not much settings he could change. Power commander however can be far more adjusted so I have been told. Had mine dynoed with PCIII and it made a nice difference, better milage and a bit more torque in the lower revs.
I'm a big fan of ECU flashing, it is often more cost effective, it often has a huge range of options that a piggy back module like a Power Commander can't touch, I can't think of an ECU that's been cooked from flashing personally. It really lets you set the bike up right as opposed to bolting something on just to try and improve fueling. What can be done on many bikes through the ECU makes a Power Commander look very crude, basic and lacking.
However...... it's not that simple with the 14, or rather the 14 is that simple. Most 14's aren't heavily restricted, it isn't popular to change fan operating temperatures, raise rev limits, open throttle body's at high revs, adjust secondary butterfly's, disable 02 sensors, disable EXUP valve, adjust deceleration fuel cut, remove top speed limiters, disable PAIR valve etc etc etc.
I would never put a Power Commander on my Gen-3 Busa, and even if I did without an ECU flash the bike would still over ride it and correct it in the emission testing area of fuel mapping. Even the latest PC couldn't 100% adjust the fuel on a Gen-3 untill the ECU was unlocked and flashed making it pointless.
Mail in, or downloaded flashes are popular even with guys who don't touch the fuelling. Heaps of folk derestrict or open up modern bikes that from the factory need to meet Euro-4 or 5 specs and aren't all they have potential to be.
Flashing maps are saved, as are stock maps and settings. No drama to reload. Just like a Power Commander so not comparison there.
However.... My 14 runs a Power Commander 3 that was mapped on a dyno (with a full Yoshi Cyclone system and PAIR blanks). It works fine and gives a well mapped crisp, strong engine.
Heaps of tuners are familiar with what is now "Old Skool" tech in a Power Commander and are happy to use them, and the 14 really doesn't have a huge list of options and massive gains waiting to be unlocked.
I have, and use both system, but they suit different bikes.
As an example.....
H2 SX SE Flash options....
(https://i.ibb.co/W0kLyvX/2-FF39-A1-D-5-F9-E-49-BA-8-DBB-1015-EC7-BE205.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G9Wq2QD)
(https://500pxdownload.com/)
H2 SX SE gains, with a stock bike......
(https://i.ibb.co/cgxfw5r/CE476-C65-E131-43-E5-BF9-A-26-CB3-E91-B2-B5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kHMbJnS)
GSX1400 options....
(https://i.ibb.co/QjydrBX/4819-F216-9113-4-DB2-8-C2-F-4500-A8449296.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
The 1400 is a great bike, but as far as electrics go it's relatively low tech and just doesn't take advantage of what modern software is capable of.
Quote from: Tony Nitrous on Thursday, 14 July 2022, 05:25 AM
As an example.....
H2 SX SE Flash options....
(https://i.ibb.co/W0kLyvX/2-FF39-A1-D-5-F9-E-49-BA-8-DBB-1015-EC7-BE205.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G9Wq2QD)
(https://500pxdownload.com/)
H2 SX SE gains, with a stock bike......
(https://i.ibb.co/cgxfw5r/CE476-C65-E131-43-E5-BF9-A-26-CB3-E91-B2-B5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kHMbJnS)
GSX1400 options....
(https://i.ibb.co/QjydrBX/4819-F216-9113-4-DB2-8-C2-F-4500-A8449296.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
The 1400 is a great bike, but as far as electrics go it's relatively low tech and just doesn't take advantage of what modern software is capable of.
Thanks for the info once again. I will be going past the shop today who I will get to do the mods (DoctorMak engines) so I will call in and have a chat to them about what they suggest. Being able to remove the 4 degree retard in lower gears sounds good
Quote from: cr500 on Thursday, 14 July 2022, 08:28 AM
Thanks for the info once again. I will be going past the shop today who I will get to do the mods (DoctorMak engines) so I will call in and have a chat to them about what they suggest. Being able to remove the 4 degree retard in lower gears sounds good
Yes. Being able to tweek ignition timing at the ECU would be nice.
Bolt in manual Ignition advancers and wire in TRE's both work but neither are ideal. One moves everything permanently in every gear, one sends a signal to every gear if it's ideal or not. Having adjustment to the timing and being able to do it in individual gears is something that's hard to do outside of the ECU if it's something you're keen on.
The only adjustment that I would need, seems not to be available for the 1400.
Is the Adjust Fan Temperature.
Why! Because I have never heard it coming on.
Quote from: Irish in Oz on Thursday, 14 July 2022, 07:38 PM
The only adjustment that I would need, seems not to be available for the 1400.
Is the Adjust Fan Temperature.
Why! Because I have never heard it coming on.
Pull the connector off the sensor below the ignition cover & short it's contacts, that's the fan switch. Mine ran so rarely it'd seized up, so it's worth checking occasionally.
Quote from: Irish in Oz on Thursday, 14 July 2022, 07:38 PM
The only adjustment that I would need, seems not to be available for the 1400.
Is the Adjust Fan Temperature.
Why! Because I have never heard it coming on.
Believe it or not my fan came on on Sunday in Scotland.
Was a hot day and some flow traffic but it's the first time in years I've had one come on and that was in Europe in very hot weather and slow traffic :cheers:
Never played around with the fans but I'm guessing the 14 is a more basic simple system with a temperature related switch triggering in more directly ? ... and not one where it is controlled though the ECU ?
The 14 should be quite easy to put a small switch it to feed it manually if you fancy, if you don't want the complication of lowering the temp that it's activated at.
Quote from: cr500 on Wednesday, 13 July 2022, 10:06 PM
I'm looking at doing a few mods on my new 14 which will require some fueling tuning (full exhaust and Yoshi cam). I was wondering though, how does a power commander compar to an ECU reflash? S as n ECU reflash can apparently remove the 4 degree ignition retard in lower gears (I'm happy to be corrected).
So why do people prefer the Power Commander over an ECU reflash done on a dyno
An ignition advancer can do that for you...
Quote from: Tony Nitrous on Friday, 15 July 2022, 02:15 PM
Never played around with the fans but I'm guessing the 14 is a more basic simple system with a temperature related switch triggering in more directly ? ... and not one where it is controlled though the ECU ?
As I commented earlier, you're correct. The switch is below the ignition side cover. From memory it cuts in when oil temp is 120c and out at 106c.
Quote from: Fast1400 on Friday, 15 July 2022, 04:40 PM
Quote from: cr500 on Wednesday, 13 July 2022, 10:06 PM
I'm looking at doing a few mods on my new 14 which will require some fueling tuning (full exhaust and Yoshi cam). I was wondering though, how does a power commander compar to an ECU reflash? S as n ECU reflash can apparently remove the 4 degree ignition retard in lower gears (I'm happy to be corrected).
So why do people prefer the Power Commander over an ECU reflash done on a dyno
An ignition advancer can do that for you...
Sort of.
The ECU retards the ignition in specific areas / in specific gears. A manual ignition advancer moves everything forward and effectively stops the retarding in these areas. However.... It moves the ignition forward in every single gear at every single point in the rev range. An ECU adjustment should let you adjust out the bits you don't want and leave the bits you do. I've played with TRE's and manual adjusters on a few bikes. Neither one is ideal, neither one lets you run individual gears or revs at their best as they both either move everything or send a fixed one gear signal.
Not knocking ignition advances, I've used them with some success but they are far from ideal or matching what an ECU flash can do.
Agree Tony. HealTech I use advances 1-4 gears but not 5-6. Makes them all the same.
Quote from: grog on Friday, 15 July 2022, 05:20 PM
Agree Tony. HealTech I use advances 1-4 gears but not 5-6. Makes them all the same.
Hi mate, you are close to me, where did you get your Healtech from and do you know what the part number is. I'm leaning towards on of these instead of a tre or 4 degree advancer, Cheers Steve.
GI PRO S01. No cant remember where I bought it. Just search the best price. Try Superbike Supply, site has phone number, in Qld and seem to have sale on.
Quote from: grog on Saturday, 20 August 2022, 02:50 PM
GI PRO S01. No cant remember where I bought it. Just search the best price. Try Superbike Supply, site has phone number, in Qld and seem to have sale on.
Thanks mate, I can only find one online in the states. I sent Superbike Supply a message to see if they have them or can get them in