Ok, so today I was invited to the nearest racetrack (129km away - 75 miles) to celebrate a friend's birthday with a few kart laps. Can't fit a rhino into a kart so I went to say happy birthday and take the bike for a long ride. Didn't go quite as planned.
First off today was a really
hot and windy day. I live near a desert and the winds were coming directly off the desert and blowing hot air across Adelaide. It got to about 36c (98F). The ride to the raceway is almost entirely along the freeway and so was at top legal speed of 110kp/h for most of the way.
Started out - all went well. Then at about the
80 mile mark I gave it a bit of a hand full at about 3,500 rpm for an over taking maneuver and it almost totally died then coughed back to life but had
no extra power above 3,500 rpm. In fact it wouldn't even spin to over 4,000 rpm. I thought
"that's weird". So I tested it and sure enough in no gear at all no matter if I gave it a full twist or opened her up gently there was no way it was going over 3,700-3,800 rpm.
Cough, dive bomb, backfiring all over the place but no dice.
Luckily enough I can sit on 110 at about 3,200 rpm ish so I was able to make it to the race track. Luckily there was a practice day on for bikes so there was bikes everywhere but I wasn't about to start walking into pits and making a pest of myself but luckily a guy waved me down. Ends up he's a 14 owner and wanted to check out my front suspension because he said he was getting speed wobbles at 100kmh. We spoke about that a bit and I asked him if he knew if there any mechanics around and he said "the track has a few putting tyres on in the first bay".
I patiently waited around and found my opportunity to ask and he said "man we're under the pump today, short staffed and bikes are lining up for tyres. No can help, sorry. So I went into reception and they pointed me back out to the tyre shed or suggested I call the local motorbike shop who asked me if I wanted to book it in for March. Blank stare. They did suggest
I let it cool off a bit and see if that would help which I'm guessing is the bike equivalent of the I.T. "switch it off then back on again". By that time it had cooled off a bit. I was able to place my hand onto the engine and keep it there so I started it and head to the karting track on the other side of the course.
Of course I had to try and see how it would rev
and low and behold it was working fine again and I was able to rev it to 7,000 rpm ish in 2nd gear so I thought
"that's weird".
Anyway, I proceeded to watch my mate do a few laps and then it was over (great) and they left. So I zipped up and started to head home again riding gently but with curiosity. Curiosity got the better of me and when I got back onto the freeway I made sure there were no cars within site in either direction and
let it rev to 8,500 in second gear then quickly changed it up to top thinking
"that's weird".
Didn't last long, for the first 10 miles it revved and performed as normal but
then it burped at 3,500rpm and I had to nurse it home the remaining 60 miles changing gears at 3,000 no matter what. It never recovered and I even gave it a few free revs at the lights when I got back into town and
no way would it even free rev over 3,500. I thought...
"that's weird" so it's not a load thing and yet it behaves exactly like a load thing. Free revving test proves it's not a load thing.
Under 3,000 rpm - fine. Over 3,500 coughs and splutters and cuts power. Got home but now the tear down begins.
Where would you start? I'll remove the tank and check the plugs. I was able to check the leads on the outer two cylinders but without proper tools wasn't in a position (or mood) to remove the tank on the side of the road (or at the track) but I would've if I was stranded as I have the standard pressed metal tool set and a Leatherman Wave which I always bring with me.
I'm thinking fuel pump, filter...etc but why only when hot? Wouldn't that prohibit it from revving when cold or just warmed up? I consulted
@Throttle and he suggests start at plugs, maybe leads, maybe coil packs. But there's a lot of maybes. The thing is I'm going to have to get it pretty hot to replicate it again (I'm guessing) so
what fails that badly when hot? Weird.
P.S. Saw a BMW 1,000(?) RR. $53,000 worth of bike according to the father who's son had just bought it (cash). Father was the 14 owner who approached me and flagged me down. Very intimidating looking bike. Those who know it (I didn't) will know what I mean.
Fuel pump or filter wouldn't generally be such a definite specific cut off at the same revs, sounds electrical to me.
Check your battery is getting full charge from the alternator.
Possibly camshaft position sensor - mine did something the same and coughed farted wouldnt rev but wasnt as bad as yours as mine cleared almost straight away
Quote from: steve porter on Monday, 14 December 2020, 08:04 PM
Fuel pump or filter wouldn't generally be such a definite specific cut off at the same revs, sounds electrical to me.
That's what I thought but only high tension stuff or maybe deeper into the magneto or timing side? Plus if it was the fuel pump or filter I'm guessing I probably wouldn't get it to ever rev to 8,500 under load hot or cold or might the pump also be affected by heat?
Quote from: Irish in Oz on Monday, 14 December 2020, 08:07 PM
Check your battery is getting full charge from the alternator.
It's a brand new AGM battery done less than 1,000km and less than 6 months. Not familiar with checking charge; is that multi meter and see if it's getting 12v at revs? I'd have to replicate it by riding around until it does it then quickly whip out the multi meter I guess.
I forgot to mention, I put BP91 in this time (and last time) and last time I added some Wynns fuel injector cleaner (appropriate amount for 20 litres but no, not the good stuff, just the retail version). I'm guessing this tank would have had very little left as I filled this morning with just one bar on the gauge.
Also forgot to mention by the time I got home it was ticking pretty loudly. No imagination this time, definitely extra tappety. Could be shims but could also be something else.
Quote from: Del on Monday, 14 December 2020, 08:21 PM
Possibly camshaft position sensor - mine did something the same and coughed farted wouldnt rev but wasnt as bad as yours as mine cleared almost straight away
Mine definitely stayed bad. I should go out for a ride again to make sure it's gone when cooled down but I'll check the easy stuff, loose spark plugs or leads come off. Check all my vacuum hoses and have a general feel around.
Oh and I just remembered, I did a test from a lower rev range and gave it a hand full from 2,500 - same thing, no go. So it's not entirely rev dependent. It's also load dependent from lower revs. So below 3,500 any heavy throttle and it chokes. I can ride it normally at normal acceleration up to 3,000 ish but after that, heavy or light load and it chokes.
I also stopped and flipped the petrol filler open in case the breather was blocked and creating a vacuum but nope. Didn't change and didn't hear an pssss when I opened it.
Worth checking the filter then, my teabag was blocked and it wouldn't take handful, but I could gently get the revs up
Quote from: steve porter on Monday, 14 December 2020, 08:50 PM
Worth checking the filter then, my teabag was blocked and it wouldn't take handful, but I could gently get the revs up
Would heat affect it like this though? My first thought was fuel filter and teabag but when it revved nicely when cooler I was perplexed. Figured it would never let it rev if it was blocked, hot or cold. Could be wrong. Do you think it's worth draining the fuel and filling with 98 again? I'm guessing nah but I'm still a noob at this (despite your caliper victory...lol).
Quote from: SA14 on Monday, 14 December 2020, 08:32 PM
Oh and I just remembered, I did a test from a lower rev range and gave it a hand full from 2,500 - same thing, no go. So it's not entirely rev dependent. It's also load dependent from lower revs. So below 3,500 any heavy throttle and it chokes. I can ride it normally at normal acceleration up to 3,000 ish but after that, heavy or light load and it chokes.
I also stopped and flipped the petrol filler open in case the breather was blocked and creating a vacuum but nope. Didn't change and didn't hear an pssss when I opened it.
That does sound like blocked fuel filters to me.
Maybe the crap in there isn't solidly stuck to the filter material & takes a few miles to block up, then falls off when you stop. Which would match you 'only does it when warm'.
Had a thought (it hurt slightly) have you checked rectifier/regulator and I know you have changed the battery but have you checked teh charging to see if it is over charging and this my be causing issues with the rectifier/regulator
I know you did a bit of titivation on the bike did you disturb any earths
Quote from: Del on Monday, 14 December 2020, 09:34 PM
Had a thought (it hurt slightly) have you checked rectifier/regulator and I know you have changed the battery but have you checked teh charging to see if it is over charging and this my be causing issues with the rectifier/regulator
I know you did a bit of titivation on the bike did you disturb any earths
I did replace the side covers. Reckon that might have disturbed something that's eventually come loose? I'll head in there if I don;t find anything obvious or find my fuel filters are dirty. Not sure how or what I'd check but I'll cross that bridge when I cross it. Something's been making a whining/whirring/spinning/humming sound for a long while lately after a ride when I get home. It sounded like a noisy radiator fan but that's never come on even on the hottest of days (like today). I think this is all related but only some sherlocknessness will reveal it's true identity.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 14 December 2020, 09:29 PM
Quote from: SA14 on Monday, 14 December 2020, 08:32 PM
Oh and I just remembered, I did a test from a lower rev range and gave it a hand full from 2,500 - same thing, no go. So it's not entirely rev dependent. It's also load dependent from lower revs. So below 3,500 any heavy throttle and it chokes. I can ride it normally at normal acceleration up to 3,000 ish but after that, heavy or light load and it chokes.
I also stopped and flipped the petrol filler open in case the breather was blocked and creating a vacuum but nope. Didn't change and didn't hear an pssss when I opened it.
That does sound like blocked fuel filters to me.
Maybe the crap in there isn't solidly stuck to the filter material & takes a few miles to block up, then falls off when you stop. Which would match your 'only does it when warm'.
Makes some sense, If nothing obvious comes after checking all the plugs and leads (how do I check the coils?) I'll be delving into the tank which is something I've been meaning to do since buying the bike as you know it sat for a very long time and I think we'd all be really surprised if they were clean.
Keep the suggestions or things to check off coming. In the meantime I'll suss out the plugs and leads. How do I check them at home? What tools do I need? I'm guessing a multi meter will be able to check for lead continuity but how does one stress test these items? Trial and error? Or is there a better way?
That loud humming is also typical of blocked fuel filters as the pump is working harder.
Hi Baz,
First thing I would personally look at are the spark plugs themselves. If you have fuel starvation, an ignition fault or overheating the colour of the electrode and insulator will look burnt. Check the back of your Haynes manual and it describes what to look for. It could just be as simple as the plugs need changing or cleaning.
Good Luck
Phil
The first thing you need to do is make sure you have a good flow of fuel to the injectors & then worry about plugs or sensors. Get the pump out of the tank, clean/replace the tea bag, back flush the HP filter or better still do the bypass and wire the pressure regulator.
As its heat related... check the coils for cracks.
Tell tale sign they are failing.
Had that on my gsx1100 the 1981 version. Cold drove like new... hot ( ca 15minutes) it ran like shit
Just a thought@ sa14 . In your opening statement you said it was very windy off the desert , have you checked the air filter isn't choked with sand, I,e low revs ,low air intake works well , high revs ,air starvation = rough running. :confused1:
You've got that aftermarket spark advancer haven't you, now that'd make a difference when real hot I bet. Just for giggles, how about disconnecting it for a bit & returning it to standard mode for a while & see how it goes?
Lots of good suggestions thanks. I'll get cracking and report back as I go.
A couple of things; the hum is more of a whistle now that I think of it. Quite high frequency. Not like the fuel pump, more like the engine fins themselves were vibrating. I've seen those rubber blocks between engine cooling fins and although highly unlikely I actually put my hand on the fins to see if that would stop it by chance but it didn't.
I'll check for cracks on the coils and the plug colour to see if that reveals anything. If they all look good I'll head into the tank. If that all looks good I'll start to suspect a sensor.
I've also done the PAIRS delete with a ball bearing. And if I get it again during the test ride I'll switch off the advance timing retard eliminator too. That would've been an easy test. Should've thought of that. Not sure what revs that operates up to but does 3,500 matchbin with that? The load symptom certainly does.
Great suggestions fellas!
Air filter was changed less than 1,000 km ago but I'll check it too.
Do a fuel flow test.
Start at the start. Flow and pressure test.
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 06:55 AM
Start at the start. Flow and pressure test.
Quote from: Snapey on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 06:50 AM
Do a fuel flow test.
I'll look up how to do a flow test but it runs fine when cold; we'll it did yesterday anyway. I may have to for another long ride around until it exhibits symptoms again and come home and do a test. Not sure what exactly a fuel test involves but I'm guessing when you turn the bike on it pushes fuel out at the maximum rate and I measure that?
How would I replicate a hot condition stress test without going out for a long ride on the freeway again? Or is that not needed because it'll show up on a cold test anyway?
The hot fault is what puzzles me. Then again I'm still very wide eyed when it comes to this bike. There's a lot of obvious stuff that hasn't cemented itself in as common sense yet. Should be able to start doing physical tests today after I get back from a few restos.
This was asked once before (https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/index.php?topic=5273.msg70161#msg70161) but not answered. It may have been answered in another thread but according to the manual I need to test the pump for flow for 30 seconds and get 1.2 litres. Can I just turn the power on and off until it measures 30 seconds or do I have to hook up to the loom and run the pump continuously for 30 seconds in one go for a proper test?
P.S. $88 for a tea bag strainer?!
This thread talks about the flow rate (1.2L in 30 seconds) & pressure. You can easy measure flow, but for pressure, you'll need a gauge in the line somewhere.
https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/index.php?topic=1474.0
Rang Suzuki and priced a new pump. There's one left in the country and the best "good guy" price he could do was about $700 and that's staff rates. Full retail was nearly $900. Tea bag filters are $90.
This one seems to still be available but of course ships from the US so who knows when it'd arrive. https://www.highflowfuel.com/i-35468028-quantum-255lph-performance-fuel-pump-w-regulator-for-suzuki-gsx-1400-2001-2008-replaces-15100-42f01.html
Haven't diagnosed it yet though. Suzuki said "sounds likely it's the fuel pump" although the 'hot temps only' is a bit puzzling to them too. I need to replicate it, ride it around for a while until it starts to do it again then head home immediately.
He also advised to be really careful twisting the throttle because if it comes good all of a sudden you're going to be looking for the nearest airport to land. Had to laugh because I didn't think about that and there I was giving it hand fulls of throttle in all gears...lol
To pay for this last post here's a few videos of before and after fuel pump replacement on a GSXR1000.
Before: [Note, no gravity fuel]
After [Note gravity fuel plus volume!]
Should mine come out like the after video or are GSXR1000s pushing way more fuel?
I'm pretty sure the pump/filter/gubbins is identical in almost every injected Suzuki, it's just the swirl pot/metal bucket they sit in that changes between bikes. I know others have found second hand ones from gsxr600s etc fit that way.
Just my thoughts, no expert. So many Suzuki wont rev posts. Gsxr, V strom, Busa. 90% is always HP filter not pump. Mine has never run as good since i did external filter mod. Costs bugger all, if it doesnt fix it, at least you know you have a good fuel supply. Then start looking for other probs. Proflow cleanable 30 micron i chose, Mahle replaceable 10 micron, same as BMW, Ducati use, its 50 mm diameter, might be harder to find a place for it, Proflow 40mm.It fits perfectly at rear tank mount, bracket ala Snapey or just foam wrap ala me. Tea bag filters are available e bay, a few dollars not $80. External mod works perfectly, gotta be better than spending hundreds.
Baz, ive just put the Quantum hpfp in my 03. No probs at all, dont waste your money on overpriced suzuki genuine parts.
I followed Andre's recommendation for the std quantum pump. Works very well. Easy to assemble and fit.
Quote from: SA14 on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 12:36 PM
Rang Suzuki and priced a new pump. There's one left in the country and the best "good guy" price he could do was about $700 and that's staff rates. Full retail was nearly $900. Tea bag filters are $90.
Do me a favour and buy the $700 one but please give me first option to buy the one you're replacing. When the new one blocks up can we do the same deal or will you have realised that a simple 4mm hole and $40 filter was a good idea. BTW, I can do you as many tea bag filters as you like for a bargain $40 each. :onya:
Yeah, nah might give the $50 million dollar Suzuki fuel pump a bit of a miss and paying $90 for a small piece of plastic would probably make me pass out from mugness.
Quote from: Snapey on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 06:56 PM
Do me a favour and buy the $700 one but please give me first option to buy the one you're replacing. When the new one blocks up can we do the same deal or will you have realised that a simple 4mm hole and $40 filter was a good idea. BTW, I can do you as many tea bag filters as you like for a bargain $40 each. :onya:
Let me see if I speak Snapey...do the external filter mod and clean the tea bag. How did I do?
Plus, it might be something else. I haven't started spinning spanners yet. I want to have a look at the plugs and see if any have come loose. Not sure how I can check the leads without a running oscilloscope or the coil packs but I'll do a visual inspection and then go for another ride until I can get it to repeat the problem then I'll switch off the ATRE and see if that helps and if not I'll head home and do a pump volume test and go from there. It still seems odd that the problem only arises when the big got hot.
Fit whatever pump you choose, its not the problem. Most, all high pressure pumps can supply enough at 43 psi. Its the stupid filter design that ruins it. Not sure i understand why you blokes dont get it. At least Snapey, Rick C. Northern from memory, understand how much better with external. Simple, easy and cheap mod. GSX 1400 loves it. GSXR guys talk of gaining 2k revs. Even V Strom blokes are happy. Just my opinion.
I don't know about you Grog but I'm done bashing my head against the wall.
No, I'm hearing ya bro. It's not that I don't "get it". I'm just asking questions and gathering thoughts. Obviously a bit hesitant to be drilling holes into the pump given it has to be an exactly correct angle and all but I've read the thread about it and will read it again. I like mods, got no problem and I was only mentioning the price of the Suzuki fuel pump for laughs. I'll try cleaning and make sure it's nothing else before I start drilling into my fuel pump though. Extra 2,000 rpm sounds nice but doubt I'll need it although I know that's not the real reason to do this. For all I know the bike's never had full power. When I rode
@Throttle 's bike it felt far more powerful than mine - instantly and I only just rode it a few hundred meters around the block. He said it was the exhaust system but what if mine's been suffering low power from a failing pump? It'd be great to get full power though I've been pretty happy with it until now. Seemed to pull very hard and want to take off without me.
Quote from: Snapey on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 07:35 PM
I don't know about you Grog but I'm done bashing my head against the wall.
I'm not sure I understand all the sudden anger here. I have an obvious problem with the bike and was just asking questions. I'm sorry (not sorry) I've upset everyone. :rolleyes: JFC don't worry about it. I'll figure it out myself or take it to a mechanic. Thank you everyone for your input and I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time.
Quote from: grog on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 07:25 PM
GSXR guys talk of gaining 2k revs.
I never rev mine over 6.
Quote from: SA14 on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 07:41 PM
Quote from: Snapey on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 07:35 PM
I don't know about you Grog but I'm done bashing my head against the wall.
I'm not sure I understand all the sudden anger here. I have an obvious problem with the bike and was just asking questions. I'm sorry I've upset everyone.
Don't worry about it Baz, they are all old a cranky.
Snapey, think the wall fell down. Its so documented every Suzuki forum. Why waste your time testing, cure is written. Maybe a few other random things but you need good fuel. Drives me insane, blame everything else but filter is clogged. Seen sim on cars, my work truck, it just pig rooted, wouldnt rev, fuel filter the cause. Heat makes it worse, hot days. low fuel supply gets worse in heat. Rang the Proflow blokes today, O ring a bit dodgy, advice was just find one that fits, agree? Since external, my bike revs to whatever, i actually think the reports of power dropping at 7k revs, now 8k revs. Not sure im correct but sure seems so.
@SA14 please don't get me wrong but I think there is no anger, it's just that you ask question for every detail and it's hard to explain it in text messages. It only takes 30mins to take apart your fuelt tank, pump and HP filter and then you will see every detail people are talking about and you will be able to understand at least 80% questions that are bothering you (for example where to drill for external filter mod at what angle...). Try it, you can do it!! And thankfully there are many pics and articles on internet and here we are to help you!
And don't forget to take photos and post them, photo say more than 1000 words!
No hard feelings! :cheers:
Glad you're getting it sorted
@SA14 don't take any offence. :cheers:
Well said
@mlivkovich :hat:
Quantum hpfp, no filter bypass, revs clean all the way to redline
https://www.highflowfuel.com/i-35468050-quantum-255lph-performance-fuel-pump-w-regulator-tank-seal-for-suzuki-gsx-1400-efi-2001-2008-replaces-15100-42f01.html
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 08:23 PM
Quantum hpfp, no filter bypass, revs clean all the way to redline
https://www.highflowfuel.com/i-35468050-quantum-255lph-performance-fuel-pump-w-regulator-tank-seal-for-suzuki-gsx-1400-efi-2001-2008-replaces-15100-42f01.html
Highly recommend these. I just fitted one to my 750 SRAD a few weeks ago and it's perfect. Fast delivery from the USA to U.K. as well. Did get stung for £10 import duty though but still cheaper than anything I could get in the U.K. and great quality.
Quote from: mlivkovich on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 08:02 PM
@SA14 please don't get me wrong but I think there is no anger, it's just that you ask question for every detail and it's hard to explain it in text messages. It only takes 30mins to take apart your fuelt tank, pump and HP filter and then you will see every detail people are talking about and you will be able to understand at least 80% questions that are bothering you (for example where to drill for external filter mod at what angle...). Try it, you can do it!! And thankfully there are many pics and articles on internet and here we are to help you!
And don't forget to take photos and post them, photos say more than 1000 words!
No hard feelings! :cheers:
Quote from: SA14 on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 07:41 PM
Quote from: Snapey on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 07:35 PM
I don't know about you Grog but I'm done bashing my head against the wall.
I'm not sure I understand all the sudden anger here. I have an obvious problem with the bike and was just asking questions. I'm sorry (not sorry) I've upset everyone. :rolleyes: JFC don't worry about it. I'll figure it out myself or take it to a mechanic. Thank you everyone for your input and I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time.
Just looking at the forum and has been the case for a little while now it's so quiet. I realised that even Baz (SA14) has totally disappeared which is strange as he was prolific on here and a lot of his posts were pretty interesting. So I looked up his last post and it seems he took offence to some of the replies which reading back aren't aimed at him personally. You can always read something into a post that's not here. Come back Baz I miss your posts!
Phil, thats happened a few times over the years. Ask questions, we try to help, they take it wrong way. Just how it is. So many prolific, genuinely incredible with answers, posters just disappear. They just move on i guess.
I'm pretty sure I saw SA14 on some FB groups asking the same questions as here, I can't recall seeing many recent posts there either.
Quote from: mlivkovich on Tuesday, 15 December 2020, 08:02 PM
@SA14 please don't get me wrong but I think there is no anger, it's just that you ask question for every detail and it's hard to explain it in text messages. It only takes 30mins to take apart your fuelt tank, pump and HP filter and then you will see every detail people are talking about and you will be able to understand at least 80% questions that are bothering you (for example where to drill for external filter mod at what angle...). Try it, you can do it!! And thankfully there are many pics and articles on internet and here we are to help you!
And don't forget to take photos and post them, photo say more than 1000 words!
No hard feelings! :cheers:
I hope that I wasn't the one who made him leave :facepalm:
I am sure you weren't to blame Mlivkovich as your post was clearly trying to help him understand people were just trying to help. He has taken offence where there was none to be taken. Hopefully he will find his way back here at some point. There are so many helpful and knowledgeable people like yourself on this forum it makes no sense not to be a part of it. It's always my first port of call when I have a problem or want advice.
Keep the good work up guys🤗🤗🤗
All,
I'm going to close this thread now, SA14 has - for his own reasons at present - chosen not to frequent the forum and we should respect that. The admin team are in contact with him, and hopefully one day he may choose to return.
Thanks Dave