Ok, I'm going to pull the good old Aussie "give it a go" card. So go easy on me although some head shaking comments may teach me something too so fire away.
I'm not without my mechanical abilities. Done light to medium stuff before and I'm a tradie of sorts so I'm not too shy when it comes to feeling the limits of my skills and I'm a fairly good researcher/reader/asker. I have a manual and read a lot of threads and posts here and in other places for other mechanical reasons. I love doing stuff but I've never bled the brakes on a bike and only a few times on a car. I understand the basic principles; expel air from system and I know why.
Goal:
Flush and bleed all hydraulic systems. Clutch and brakes
Reason:
Bike has been sitting for 5 years, 2 years of which were out under a carport near the ocean, last 3 years in a dry garage. Fluids had to be flushed - everyone agreed.
Tools:
- Vacuum pump, clear hoses and nipple boots.
- 44 gallons of Dot 4 brake fluid (4 x 1 litre containers)
- 8mm spanner
I had no idea what was going to greet me when I pulled off the chain cover. Didn't even know there were three bolts. Pulled it off and yuk, big lumps of grease and dirt piled up inside but the clutch area was reasonably clean, no fluid leaks and what not. As soon as I removed the cover I could see how it all operated (mental notes taken for the clutch rod seal upgrade later).
When I showed I'd bought 4 litres of brake fluid in the "what did you buy today" thread I was met with a few wide eyes but I've already gone through 1 litre on the clutch alone. I knew that'd be the case which is why I bought a trillion gallons of it.
The biggest disappointment right off the bat was that the vacuum system I bought was utter shit. Pump works ok but I was getting massive and volcanic bubbles in the fluid as it exited the nipple. Turns out the hoses and boots seal very poorly and there are just vacuum leaks everywhere. I'm most upset because I couldn't see if there were any bubbles in the system causing my "can't select 1st gear after long ride" post. So that opportunity was lost but whatever; I reverted to old school "pump and dump" not entirely sure if it works the same for a clutch but I gave it a go using the aforementioned useless clear rubber hoses which worked ok if doing it old school.
Q. The clutch pedal felt sloppy after every fluid release. After every dump the clutch lever would be totally slack for the first (I'm guessing) 1cm until I pumped it (just the slack) half a dozen times after which it felt as firm as a clutch can feel before pulling in with a firm resistance as per normal. After the slack has been "pumped" out of the system it now feels like a normal clutch lever should. Is that normal?
Ran the reservoir dry a few times (big trap for young players...I know) which explains the 1 litre used. Who knows that feeling when you hear the sucking air/bubbling sound? I know it now too so welcome to some club? The last 20+ pump and dumps were solid fluid but the previous 40 or so did occassionally have a very fine stream of aeration which I presume is me bleeding out the air that I'd just sucked in. So I'm pretty sure it's clean, flushed and bled...to the max. I know that's excessive but I have a fuel tanker parked outside full of brake fluid so I'm fine to be sure, to be sure, to be sure.
I'm also changing to Gulf Western Syn-X 3,000 engine oil as suggested so hopefully that'll solve my 1st gear engagement problem. Now, onto the brakes. I'm inside typing this during a tea-break (again, as suggested) and thought I'd ask a few obvious questions while here. I'm going to head out and just try whatever but...
Q1) The rear brake has two bleed nipples. Inboard and outboard. Which do I do first? I'm guessing the furthest one which is the inner, followed by the closest outer one but that's just a guess using what little common sense I have about this operation.
Q2) Will the same "furthest one first" also apply to the front brakes? Left side first (as sitting on the bike) then the right?
I've just been reading the Haines manual and all it says is "bleed both sides" so I'm guessing it doesn't matter but I have a niggling feeling it does matter. On a car I'd do the furthest one first.
Shame about the vacuum pump though.
Update:
I tried the inner rear nipple and not much seemed to be coming out of there bu there was a bit so I emptied a half dozen reservoir's worth out of that one then tried the outer nipple. Much more came out of there so I pumped a half dozen reservoirs out of that one too, then went back and shot a few more through the rear then the front again. That ought to do it. Brake lever feels tight and solid and fluid runs clear. There wasn't any difference in colour to be honest so it was hard to tell when the old was out and the new was in so I reckon I flowed a good half a litre through there. That ought to do it...lol
Now, onto the fronts. I'll start with the left (if I can manage the gymnastics).
Ok well that was quick. Screw head is stripped on the front brake reservoir. Can't get the lid off. Tried some gentle pseudo-impact action with a small hammer tapping while pressing really hard onto the (correctly sized) driver but no budgies so that's the end of that.
Onto flushing the engine oil. I don't have a new sump plug washer although it was replaced 500km ago during the initial new owner oil change so I hope it'll be ok. Hopefully this Gulf Western Syn-X 3000 is here to stay the duration. With a new oil filter just also changed just 500km ago I'm guessing I'll be good to go with a good feeling that I've done all I can. Got the little torque wrench already set to 17 lb/ft ;)
Where the hell am I going to get a new little reservoir lid screw from and how the hell am I going to get this one out?
Someone here b4 mentioned putting valve grinding paste into screw head for grip. Otherwise i guess you just drill head off, get thread out after.
Talking of sump washers, I've only ever replaced mine once in about 40 oil changes & that was only cause I went to a dealer for a filter as everyone else was out of stock.
Grinding paste on the screw is something I've heard of but not tried. I've hammered a screwdriver into screws to create enough of a head to get them out before.
Quote from: Hooli on Saturday, 19 September 2020, 06:36 PM
Talking of sump washers, I've only ever replaced mine once in about 40 oil changes & that was only cause I went to a dealer for a filter as everyone else was out of stock.
Grinding paste on the screw is something I've heard of but not tried. I've hammered a screwdriver into screws to create enough of a head to get them out before.
Good to know about the washer, as a noob I like to take every precaution I can as insurance so I'll put that one down to "fine for a while". I'll try the centre punch on the rim method first because it's a low stress screw that should be easy to get out. I think my reverse-out will be able to grab this one easy (unlike like the great shock bolt fiasco of 2020...lol) but only once I've got a replacement standing by to put back in. Is this one of the Japanese screw head moments or just bad luck? I always press hard and make sure my correctly sized driver is square to the plane before undoing any screws but all the previous ones were fine, not sure what this one's problem is.
Quote from: grog on Saturday, 19 September 2020, 06:34 PM
Someone here b4 mentioned putting valve grinding paste into screw head for grip. Otherwise i guess you just drill head off, get thread out after.
Don't have any grinding paste but something to put on the shopping list. Is that like the paste they use for facing valves? (see? I know some stuff!) :grin:
Anyway, true to the title it's all over for this afternoon because...drum roll please... I have a flattery. Last night when closing door and windows at the end of the night I noticed a feint red glow coming from the shed (eek!). I skipped out there at a medium pace to discover (have you guessed it?) yep, left it in park (exactly as I was warned not to do on here) and it was the tail light I was seeing through the window. No headlight parker globe meant I didn't notice it until after dark. I gave it a quick kick over last night and it seemed fine - I guess it wasn't as fine as it could be. Also, I didn't know it wouldn't start without the seat on...is that a thing or just my imagination? So I have my tiny no-amp-cheapest-possible phone charger sized battery charger putting away slowly. Should be charged in the next few days. It's a new battery.
Is it time for beer yet? I think so. Am I having fun yet? Absolutely! I bought this bike not just for riding but also to tinker with as a hobby. Mission accomplished.
Aye I think it's a JIS screw thing, most people seem to replace them. I've got allen headed ones in mine as the local fastener place had them in stock when I popped in.
SA14, put penetrating oil, a few drops, on the buggered screw. I'll get in & help the release. Yep, hammering a std screwdriver tip into it will help turn it, once you have the penetrating oil go in, You can buy the same sml screw at your regular nut n bolt shop. Blacks fasteners are in NZ, dunno about over there.
Just take the 1 good one (off either the clutch lid or the brake lid - they're the same) in, & they'll be able to match it no worries, cost ya a couple of bux at the most.
Quote from: Hooli on Saturday, 19 September 2020, 07:13 PM
Aye I think it's a JIS screw thing, most people seem to replace them. I've got allen headed ones in mine as the local fastener place had them in stock when I popped in.
Yes, someone else (a visitor who came to check it out) said the same thing now that I remember. "replace those with alien head bolts as soon as you can because they'll strip (obviously because no one is aware of the JIS thing until it's pointed out to them) so I'll do that. I'm also going to buy myself a JIS screw driver set if I can find one anywhere.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Saturday, 19 September 2020, 07:16 PM
SA14, put penetrating oil, a few drops, on the buggered screw. I'll get in & help the release. Yep, hammering a std screwdriver tip into it will help turn it, once you have the penetrating oil go in, You can buy the same sml screw at your regular nut n bolt shop. Blacks fasteners are in NZ, dunno about over there.
Just take the 1 good one (off either the clutch lid or the brake lid - they're the same) in, & they'll be able to match it no worries, cost ya a couple of bux at the most.
Ah, yes, good idea I'll go and do that now but all I have is wd-40. I used to have a really old can of Penetrene. Yeah I have several nut and bolt shops nearby. I even found one that accepts real money so I'll shop there. "c-card only" annoys me.
QuoteYou guys are awesome, thanks for pitching in. This noob needs you.
E-Bay for the JIS screwdrivers. Heaps there, more than you'll actually need, but they are generally a good screwdriver.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=jis+screwdriver&_sacat=0
Thanks, Vessel seems to be the main brand, made in Japan.
Hey, while I'm waiting for the battery to charge is there any point in trying to drain cold oil if left to drip out overnight? May as well get that started if it'll drain enough. And yep, I'll put a big strip of masking tape across my ignition switch saying "NO OIL!" just in case I wander out there yawning in the morning and try and start it after charging. (see? I know things) :-)
I prefer to drain them warm, my thinking is the recent 'stirring' of the oil will pick up any bits sat in the sump so they get washed out with it.
Quote from: Hooli on Saturday, 19 September 2020, 08:41 PM
I prefer to drain them warm, my thinking is the recent 'stirring' of the oil will pick up any bits sat in the sump so they get washed out with it.
That makes sense. I'll wait.
Yay! (then oops).
Managed to extract the screw (centre punch/chisel spin didn't work but it might have loosened it a bit) but farqued it up sawing in a temporary screw slot (too deep). Head shaking is the correct response.
Off to Chunnings I go. Doubt they'll have anything but worth a shot. It's a beautiful day and I want to get out for a test ride but if they have nothing I'll just have to wait until I can replace them with allen bolts. Thread looks super fine though.
Great it's out, how's the top of the reservoir look? I doubt Bunning would have what's required, a Fastener specialist will have it.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Sunday, 20 September 2020, 02:34 PM
Great it's out, how's the top of the reservoir look? I doubt Bunning would have what's required, a Fastener specialist will have it.
Extractor spin it out pretty easily. Didn't have to drill down far. Yeah, I agree on Chunnings probably not having anything that small but might get lucky in a kit. I'm thinking small hinge screw or something. Anything that'll get me out on the roads today.
Shock and awe!
They had M4 bolts in stainless (plus Allen head bolts from M5 and up - good to know). I bought two lengths (one matches perfectly!) and a bunch of washers to make sure I cover the chamfered hole in the cover completely. I'll file down the longer ones if needed but I'll be riding today for sure...unless I farque up the front brake flush but confidence is back up.
Might be a bit of overkill on the bolts n washers, but it'll work, - till you can get the right stuff.
Screwed in the longer bolts and there's plenty of thread to accept them so I'll use the longer ones. The fatter countersunk washers look a bit agricultural but the smaller stainless washers seem to fit nicely even if they do sit at the top of the countersink in the lid and to be honest it doesn't look totally out of place. They cinch on nice and tight and for the lid it's plenty strong enough and full stainless is a bonus.
Well done mate. Some nice little countersunk stainless allen keys will look better. Must get some myself, will look good with my polished caps.
Just happens I took a pic of my 'dash' today as well.
Always put a dab of Coppaslip or better still, Nickelslip grease on the bolts to prevent future seizing. Countersunk Allen bolts will look far nicer :onya:
Thanks to all who pitched in -
it's all done! Clutch flushed and bled
3 x brakes flushed and bled
Oil changed (after 500km flush with Castrol)
Oil Filter Changed
Exactly perfect amount of Gulf Western Syn-X 3000
Providing it all still works when I next go for a ride I'm a happy chappy and a little bit chuffed. All levers feel firm. I tested 1st gear engagement and pulled the clutch in and out and it works. Road test is the real test of course but I think I did it.
Even my dog winked at me. A man, a dog, a big block bike, a shed and I smell of oils. I even left a foot print in the kitchen carpet. I believe everything is as it should be.
Quote from: froudy on Sunday, 20 September 2020, 05:21 PM
Always put a dab of Coppaslip or better still, Nickelslip grease on the bolts to prevent future seizing. Countersunk Allen bolts will look far nicer :onya:
100% agree. I'll get some this week. This was just an emergency measure - they look ugly as but functional and I just wanted to finish it and go for a ride today but I missed that boat because it's dark and raining now. Will be wet all week they say although they totally stuffed up this weekend's weather forecast. Was supposed to be rain and stormy but it was blue skies and warm both days until just now.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Sunday, 20 September 2020, 05:20 PM
Just happens I took a pic of my 'dash' today as well.
Holy moly! That's a lot of tron! I was wondering about setting up an iPhone holder and charger. Later, for now I enjoy "no phones" while riding. Although some Judas Priest (or Saxon) tunes would be nice e.g. Riding In The Wind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Di4ieBUTgA).
Quote from: grog on Sunday, 20 September 2020, 05:13 PM
Well done mate. Some nice little countersunk stainless allen keys will look better. Must get some myself, will look good with my polished caps.
Totally going to get some proper countersunk allen heads - preferably in black with the stock black caps. I'm pretty choosy about where I place my bling. Point and counter point as the design guide always says.
Well done SA14, I reckon you've got the cleanest set of internal brake lines you can get. For stuck screws or bolts, I always try to tighten them up a fraction, this unlocks them normally.
Try model or hobby shops, they normally have all sizes of these small screws and bolts.
Vessel JIS screwdrivers are the bomb, I bought the full set, 135 delivered, including impact ones, they just work.
Bleeding brakes is pretty easy, ive tried the vacuum kit and agree its a piece of crap. Even on my modern high tech Landrover i use the old school clear tube into a jar with absolutely no issues.
I follow the same principle as on cars and work from the furthest to closest to the reservoir. I also put a new master cylinder service kit through it, includes new rubber seals, and you can strip out the master cylinder and clean it out properly. Clutch master cylinder is exactly the same, and the slave cylinder can also be serviced.
Glad you've got your first gear sorted, you'll be happy with gulf western oil. I think my sump plug is still original, never leaks, just dont overtighten.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Sunday, 20 September 2020, 10:06 PM
Well done SA14, I reckon you've got the cleanest set of internal brake lines you can get. For stuck screws or bolts, I always try to tighten them up a fraction, this unlocks them normally.
Try model or hobby shops, they normally have all sizes of these small screws and bolts.
Vessel JIS screwdrivers are the bomb, I bought the full set, 135 delivered, including impact ones, they just work.
Bleeding brakes is pretty easy, ive tried the vacuum kit and agree its a piece of crap. Even on my modern high tech Landrover i use the old school clear tube into a jar with absolutely no issues.
I follow the same principle as on cars and work from the furthest to closest to the reservoir. I also put a new master cylinder service kit through it, includes new rubber seals, and you can strip out the master cylinder and clean it out properly. Clutch master cylinder is exactly the same, and the slave cylinder can also be serviced.
Glad you've got your first gear sorted, you'll be happy with gulf western oil. I think my sump plug is still original, never leaks, just don't over tighten.
Thanks, appreciate the nod n' wink. The screw head must have already been damaged I reckon because it never gripped. It just slipped from the first turn. Will definitely look into a set of Vessels as I reckon the problem started by me using pointy standard Stanley phillips head screwdriver. Haven't seen a full set of Vessels like you describe though but I've only checked e-bay. Will look deeper into it.
Actually I'm not sure if I've got first gear sorted yet as it started to rain as I was finishing up. The clunk into first was pretty dramatic though as it was sitting on the centre stand. As soon as I get a chance I'll take it for a spin but it only seemed to happen after the 50km ride through the Adelaide Hills twisties so not sure if that "loosened" anything up after sitting for so many years or what. I haven't tried to "adjust" the clutch though. Not sure how to do it or what to adjust but I'm guessing there'd have to be an adjustment somewhere.
Edit: Just checked the manual and on page 1.16 is says in the first point;
1. All models are fitted with an hydraulic clutch for which there is no method of adjustment So if my 1st gear selection issues remain I'll have to check back in with you guys for further suggestions.
Also ht manual keeps referring to "clutch fluid" not brake fluid. I assumed it's the same but we all know what assumptions are the mother of.
Yep, same stuff.
The bad clunk is probably because you've changed the oil & all the oil that normally sits in the clutch plates came out. Until it's moved a bit it won't all get nicely between the plates again.
Then again they randomly do it, mine either goes in utterly smoothly or with a big clunk & there appears no logic to it.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 21 September 2020, 02:48 AM
The bad clunk is probably because you've changed the oil & all the oil that normally sits in the clutch plates came out. Until it's moved a bit it won't all get nicely between the plates again.
Then again they randomly do it, mine either goes in utterly smoothly or with a big clunk & there appears no logic to it.
Interesting. It's not "bad" as such, just that normal familiar clunk. I kind of like it. To me it serves as like a warning to hang on and get ready. But scattered showers all week so I might not get a chance to test ride until I get a decent break in the weather to go for a decent ride to see how it goes into first gear when the gears are hot.
idle rpm affects it too, mine seems fine getting into 1st at 1000-1100rpm, a really big clunk any faster than that
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Monday, 21 September 2020, 08:17 PM
idle rpm affects it too, mine seems fine getting into 1st at 1000-1100rpm, a really big clunk any faster than that
Interesting, I'll check that. Thanks for the tip!
@SA14 as hooli says warm the engine first as this will pick up any rubbish and also warm oil is thinner so will drain more efficiently.
Quote from: Tally on Tuesday, 22 September 2020, 02:22 AM
@SA14 as hooli says warm the engine first as this will pick up any rubbish and also warm oil is thinner so will drain more efficiently.
Thanks, all done now. Waiting for the weather to clear before heading out for a test ride and more practice.
Went out for a test ride this arvo. Started, stopped and clutched just fine. Did some super emergency stops from 60km/h in my side street and around the block first though and the brakes seem nice and firm. I know it's just a small thing but I'm a bit chuffed. Gave her a bit of a squirt too (if you can call 4,500 in 2nd gear a squirt...lol) and oh my lord! Yep, I own the correct bike. That's for freaking sure.
The End
Baz, you'll also find she is very willing in 3rd, take 2nd to around 5thou, change up & give her a big handful (n hang on!) That'll definitely give you a grin, (maybe with soiled trousers as well), but you'll get a good idea of what she can be like.
She is also very happy just riding calm & sedate, definitely 2 sides to this bike.
Glad you've got it sorted & are now happy with it. There's just the time in the seat now to grow confidence, but it will come.
:cruisin:
Good job Mate. A good long ride, reset idle to 1100, then reset TPS. Then just ride.
Quote from: grog on Thursday, 24 September 2020, 05:49 PM
Good job Mate. A good long ride, reset idle to 1100, then reset TPS. Then just ride.
You all helped a lot. I've just ordered the Gear indicator with timing retard delete from Healtech and will be doing the PAIRS delete next. Might order the Perth kit. Waiting for the weather to fine up again.