Debating whether or not to get a PC5. My bike is standard apart from end cans though dunno if it's standard downpipes or not but I'm assuming they are standard ones. Will there be a significant power increase and/or MPG improvement with just a PC5 or is it only worth it if I put on a full exhaust system? Also is there any problems with reliability? Watch a few videos on youtube of people who have had car remapped and one guy had his Audi A5 remapped and the flywheel failed because it wasn't rated for the torque the remap gave the car. Is there anything that would cause the engine to become less reliable on the GSX?
A PC5 is completely fine to add to the bike, if you want one. It won't cause it to become unreliable. They allow the AFR ratios to be tuned on the bike, this can improve fueling & smooth out the rev range. I think there's a bit more power to be had, not a lot if your system is basically standard, but put yoshi cams in & a full Akro exhaust & the power goes up noticeably.
Think some of the members are getting 125 - 135hp from a setup like that..
Cost for that setup & dymo time, which is needed to get it set, is a big drawback for most, as how often do you wring out everything the bike has at the moment? Wide open throttle, full power probably only gets used 1% (or less) so if it's going fast enough without the PC5, you have to ask yourself, why do I want this?
If it's just to have a 'better' bike, then yes, you should get it & spend the thousands of dollars setting it up right. If it's to get marginally better fuel consumption using your current setup, then I'd suggest keep yer dollars for fuel & not a PC5.
Totally agree with everything said above & I found in the past that even with standard exhaust set up and a generic map installed from the power commander web site that it smoothed out the jerkiness while on/off the throttle and increased the responsiveness without paying for dyno time
It's also keeping your eye out on ebay as the older PC3's come up quite often for relatively cheap prices and work well enough for most on the 1400's
Cheers
Pete
A stock `14 has decent power, decent torque and decent fuel economy, and performs quite well. I therefore wonder why folk get obsessed with wanting to spend big money on such little gain that a PC could provide?
Maybe the answer is to buy a `170bhp 190mph pocket rocket` too, for those odd times when the `14 is just not enough...... :stir:
A PC3 & dyno map on mine was totally worth it.
Max power is bugger all difference, I think I gained 2bhp. However responsiveness & smoothness at low throttle/revs became a lot better - typically 30mph in 4th or 40mph in 5th where a lot nicer. It just makes the bike better to ride, the 3-4mpg gain means it paid for itself ages ago too.
Mines a K2 with full Akra, K2-K4 run rich as standard. Later ones are often lean on part throttle, I've seen a standard K7 FE with the dealer Yoshi can on a dyno when Grumpy refused to continue the run as it was dangerously lean - that FE was totally standard fueling etc.
So I have never understood why anyone would pay 100's of £$€¥ or whatever for a power commander. The 14's have so much torque and acceleration that anyone other than a complete idiot with a death wish could use on legal roads. Fuel consumption could surely never be improved enough to get your hard earned back even if you did a million miles😂 Now having said that and never having had one, I can't say if they add to the joy of a Sunday blast by smoothing out the Rev range. So perhaps if I could pick up one used for a low price I may be tempted.
My question is: There are most probably tons of power commanders on FB but are they bike specific or do they fit all? If they do fit all are they any use without being set up by an expert? I know nothing about them and will not apologise for my ignorance. I just can't be arsed to research a bit of kit that seems completely irrelevant on such a powerful bike. Further to that, I know full well, you guy's on here will put me right🤗
No they don't fit all bikes. The actual power commander is the same thing, but they have the correct plugs for the bike's loom to suit each bike.
When you install one, the base setting is a downloaded map (downloaded from Power Commander) to suit the mods you've got. That map will be a bit rich (as that's safe to allow for differences between individual bikes) but even that improves the bike. The more mods you've got, the more difference you'll see. A dyno setup will adjust that map to suit your exact bike.
I find the improved response etc at low throttle/revs - ie where we normally ride these bikes, made it even better to ride & was worth it. As I've done 140k miles since the custom map, I'm damn sure the 3-4mpg more has paid back the £150 it cost me to get the dyno tune done.
Going away from 14s I fitted screaming eagles, PC3 & a sports air filter on an ex's sportster 883. It went from doing 105mph flat out to 125mph & still pulling! I merged two different downloaded maps as one run better at low revs & another at high revs. It also gained 20-25miles per tank, which as it did 85miles till the reserve light when standard was a worthwhile gain!
Basically a power commander & map does the same as rejetting a carbed bike, if that helps understanding the differences it makes.
On my k2
I did a few trips with the same folk
Kawazaki ZXR1200, a GSX750, a GSX1200 inasuma and my GSX1400 k2.
Standard I had the biggest tank 22liters and the zrx had the smallest tank 19litres
I always need fuel before the others .
After fitting a full akroprovic system and a pc3usb I still had 2 bars on the Fuel gauge when the zrx was on fumes .
A trip to Sweden and back I was getting every 4th tank of fuel for free compared to before .
So totally worth it and that was without a custom map on a dyno just using a powercommander map.
That said when I did the same set up (akroprovic and pc3usb) my k6 it got slightly worse on fuel (though it was way better standard than the k2 was standard )
But much improved after a dyno map.
Hope that makes some kind of sense. :cheers:
Wow! Okay Hooli you have my upmost respect as a real biker not a part time jaunt about like I have become in my old age. I still stick with my premise however that high mileage (Not a million miles perhaps but 140k 😳 is more than most of us do in a life time) is the only reason you would ever consider a PC on a 14 given it's too quick already to need more oomph. I get other bikes without the power can really gain from re-mapping but not a 14 on a Sunday blast or occasional commuter trip. I will stick with the standard specification but thanks again for explaining how the PC works. That's why I love this forum! You guys blow me away with your know how🤗
Your choice, but I said the biggest differences I noticed riding my after the PC3 & custom map was when riding slow. It got rid of a fluffiness I hadn't even known was there till it'd gone.
Main thing that got me to get a custom map was my bike came with an Akra & PC3 already fitted, so it seemed daft not to get the job finished.
My 14 has always been stock and has always been smooth, so never needed to change anything.
If you put in a 4 degree advancer and remove pairs isn't that mean't to help all that unsmooth low running.
Thought I would have noticed it after riding the FJR.
I've never ridden a later one, but I suspect K5 onwards aren't fluffy anyway. K2-K4 are a bit rich as standard which does make engines less responsive.
Mines good. In the past have thought about PC and Dyno. Never got around to it, moral to that is, she runs just fine. I did find disabling PAIRS was a good move. Was around 8 yrs ago so cant remember exact diff.
I fitted a PC to my K7 1400 and it made no discernible difference so I took it off and sold it. Bike is fully stock apart from a slip on can.
mjgt, exact same as mine.
"Power is nothing without control", the PC def improves throttle response, fuel economy and rideability.
System is not complete and will not provide many noticeable improvements without aftermarket exhaust, different camshafts and dyno time.
So PC+Akra+Yoshi cams+Dyno time = :boogie:
Just PC on a stock bike = :whatever:
K7 must be the best model.
I don't have sausage fingers.
Don't think I'll get a PC. Suppose only gain would be fuel and also if it can have full amount of torque in the lower gears. I very rarely use the the power of the GSX as it is though on the odd occasion wish it had 120 odd hp.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Wednesday, 16 September 2020, 09:28 PM
So PC+Akra+Yoshi cams+Dyno time = :boogie:
PC - check.
Akra - full system - check
Yoshi Stage 1 cams - check
Dyno time (well, no but using a map from an identically outfitted 1400)
Is it better? I dunno, I've never ridden it with no PC or Akro.
If you have to spend all that lovely lucre and there is no discernable difference is it really worth it. :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:
I fitted an Akrapovic system on mine and I could smell the unburned fuel when standing behind it. After fitting a PC-V AND getting a remap on a rolling road (without the PC-V is worthless) it runs more responsive, revs more freely and I have a better fuel economy (40km on a full tank more). The fact you can get the engine running at its best performance without running rich or lean in certain rpm ranges is worth the money in my opinion.
Look from other side. I have K7 with full akra, yoshi ST1, PCV with autotune, quick reaction throttle and so on. Fuel map is tuned by me (it took a lot of time and miles).
Sometimes I service the standard GSX1400 K2 which belongs to my friend. And when I'm doing a test drive ot that standard K2 I can only say one thing as a first feeling .... has no power.
E: But PC III or PC V itself is in my opinion a waste of money ....
Oh come on Vici a standard K2 GSX1400 has no power!!! My K2 is completely standard and has more power than is safe to use legally on any European road. I have ridden a number of bikes on track, have a GSXR750 for track days in my garage and have owned an Aprilia RSV1000R until quite recently. My K2 will match any of those bikes from a standing start up to 60mph (100kph) and some. No standard 14 in good working order lacks power💪🏋️♀️
I knew there would be anger on my head, but that feeling won't change.
If I change directly one motorcycle to another, then simply the standard one does not run and has no power against the modified one.
This is not to say that the standard gsx1400 is going badly.
Now you can hang me, but that feeling and experience just won't change anything. Like my friend's smile when I lend him mine. :hat:
E: The same feeling would be felt by someone (Boris example) who would sit on mine from stronger GSX. It is simple.
Thirty years ago, i`d have probably gone for it!
At the risk of sounding dull, I`m more than happy with the way my K3 performs `as is`. I`ve often got my `supervisor` on the pillion and the `14 is extremely capable of hauling our combined weight (!) of 21stone very, very quickly indeed to 100mph plus.
The `14 `package` is extremely smooth, capable and fuel efficient, as most of us know as owners. Good torque and reasonable power seems to work really well. OK, forget 145mph plus, but thats not what the bike is about....... :whistling:
No anger Vici at all. We all have our own opinions and I truly respect yours but I cannot for the life of me understand how you can say a well set up standard 14 lacks power. A few add on mods like an exhaust system and power commander will add some additional bhp. However, in my opinion, not enough to make a noticeable different on road for the cash investment. Now if your talking about enhancing the looks of the 14 or the sound I can readily agree for some that's a valid investment. A power commander however does not enhance the look of the bike and for $$$$ spent neither adds any usable road power or enough fuel economy to justify the outlay unless your covering huge distances. That said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if it works for you then that's all that matters 🤗
Big Phil > But I never talked about money. From my point of view, a motorcycle is not an economical transport. My car is much better at this point of view.
I have a motorcycles (not just GSX1400) as a hobby and for fun. Therefore, I do not regret the money spent on. And maybe it's not even as much as you'd expect. I got a lot of things used (Yoshimura ST1 camshaft from Boris, PC V from bandit forum and so on). We just have a different perspective on that.
But we agree that only the power commander is a waste of money (the result for me is not worth the cost). It is important for larger modifications. And if those adjustments make sense, it's up to each of us ....
BR Vici
@Big Phil I think VICI's comments are in relation to stepping back from his modified GSX to the standard one is quite a noticeable difference and not meaning a standard lacks power, just not as much as his modified GSX. :onya: :onya: :onya:
Quote from: GSXKING on Friday, 02 October 2020, 05:06 PM
Phil I think VICI's comments are in relation to stepping back from his modified GSX to the standard one is quite a noticeable difference and not meaning a standard lacks power, just not as much as his modified GSX. :onya: :onya: :onya:
You got it exactly as it was meant.
Okay I get it now👍
I knew what you meant. 135 bhp? on same bike is always gonna feel gruntier than 105. 33% increase. 👍
I do understand Grog that you can get major increases in power and there are some great products and talented people who can help you achieve that. My point was really about the standard 14 lacking power. I think I got my wires crossed a bit but still stick with my premise that on road the standard 14 has more than enough useable power for any rider. On track that's a different matter completely. You can use the power increase safely on track and certainly reach and surpass the abilities of a standard 14. However, on the road, there is only one way riding a standard 14 to its limits is eventually going to end for even a very talented rider.
No arguments from me. I use mine as just my bike. It sure can go if wanted. Last year had Diavel to use, 162 bhp in sport mode, i often turned it back to 100 bhp mode, just felt more user friendly. Power doesnt scare me but 14 just does what i need. Brilliant bike.
I took out a Kawasaki H2 last week and I would say up to 6k my 1400 Suzuki trumps it, after that the Kawasaki just fucks off up the road, that's 106 BHP vs 197BHP. However I much prefer the character of the 1400 which has plenty of real world poke whereas the H2 was a bit bland below 6k and bonkers above, not for me.
Strange as we change what we need, back in 80s, had gs1000, gsx1100 and Ducati Darmah. All at same time. Both Suzuki had grunt, 1100 for sure. I spent time/money getting 80 bhp from Darmah, still not sure which bike i prefered. I kept Suzis for 5 yrs, Ducati for 15. Yeah, would like them all back.
Quote from: grog on Friday, 02 October 2020, 07:15 PM
Strange as we change what we need, back in 80s, had gs1000, gsx1100 and Ducati Darmah. All at same time. Both Suzuki had grunt, 1100 for sure. I spent time/money getting 80 bhp from Darmah, still not sure which bike i prefered. I kept Suzis for 5 yrs, Ducati for 15. Yeah, would like them all back.
Wouldn't we all. I would love to have my Suzuki GSX 1100 and my Ducati 860 GTS back now, I can afford to run them now. :lol:
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Wednesday, 16 September 2020, 09:28 PM
...the PC def improves throttle response, fuel economy and rideability...
I'm more interested in manners than outright speed. To me the 14 has way more than enough power already but anything that increases manners is worth it. In the "old days" of Kwaka 9s and GSX 1100s people took extraordinary lengths and measures to get the sort of power that we have stock in our 14s. For me the only real "improvement" is in delivering that power smoother and more consistently across the usable rev range. During my recent and maiden longer rides the power almost shocked me but I did find it a bit snatchy and jumpy coming on and off the throttle at lower speeds. I'd be more than happy to live with it but if it can be minimised (or even eliminated) I'd like that.
Today I'm going to try the PAIRS mod so I can see if I notice any refinement at lower speeds and in that vein (although at a much greater cost) the Power Commander interests me. I only have an aftermarket muffler so I probably won't notice any top end power improvement but if I can use it to deliver the existing power in a more civilised manner or gain any low or mid range torque I'm definitely interested.
Great thread. All opinions matter to someone like me who's coming into this 14 world with wide eyes.
SA14, try playing with your gear position indicator/TRE. I found after fitting mine it was real jerky in the lower gears at low revs, ie going through round abouts or rolling around a T intersection with very slight acceleration.
I turned the TRE part back standard and it seems to have fixed the problem.
Note - I also have and extra 3 degrees of timing by slotting the timing pick up plate as well so This could have been adding to my problems.
Quote from: NutR33 on Saturday, 03 October 2020, 10:09 AM
SA14, try playing with your gear position indicator/TRE. I found after fitting mine it was real jerky in the lower gears at low revs, ie going through round abouts or rolling around a T intersection with very slight acceleration.
I turned the TRE part back standard and it seems to have fixed the problem.
Note - I also have and extra 3 degrees of timing by slotting the timing pick up plate as well so This could have been adding to my problems.
Do you mean turn off the timing retard eliminator? I'm noticing extra grunt with the retardation eliminated which I'm enjoying and although I do enjoy the gear position indicator it'd be kind of sad to lose the grunt to prevent a bit of snatching at lower revs which I can minimise with riding style and being aware and careful. It's not a big problem, just a refinement I'd like to see if I can do something about.
Going a bit off topic but while we're at it; There are 5 other maps on this system but no one can tell me what affect it would have on my bike. Not the re-seller in Australia or even Healtech support in Hungary could explain to me what would happen if I tried some of the other maps which I thought was pretty poor. All I got was "no idea" or "fuck around and find out" or "just switch it off if you don't like it" and this was from their own support department. I expected more to be frank.
To get back on topic I really must stop searching for things on gumtree. Found a PC5 in the next suburb off a Hayabusa Gen 2 for $500 which is still an eye opening amount of money to spend on small refinements plus, not sure if it'd even fit our 14s. Plus then there's a tune on top. Not ready to spend that amount of money quite yet without trying the easy and obvious stuff first. If by removing the pairs and maybe playing with the ATRE maps first, once I can ascertain they're different from each other and harmless to try.
NutR33, either slotted plate or ATRE, not both. Your plate will advance all gears, ATRE not 5&6.
Yep, worked that one out. I wanted the gear position indicator, the tre was a bonus so I wasn't to bothered when I had to turn it back to standard.
SA14 - Erm, this thread is sounding really technical now. Think basics - if you`re not happy with the power delivery and general feel of the bike at low revs its always worth checking chain tension and throttle cable adjustment before concerning yourself with major unneccessary fixes. :onya:
SA14, I'd wouldn't be entertaining a PC V at this stage, unless you have lots of spare coin & like to spend it unnecessarily, as your bike will go quite well without it. A year down the track, yeah maybe, if you want more out of it & want to do all the other upgrades to go with it.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Sunday, 04 October 2020, 09:53 AM
SA14, I'd wouldn't be entertaining a PC V at this stage, unless you have lots of spare coin & like to spend it unnecessarily, as your bike will go quite well without it. A year down the track, yeah maybe, if you want more out of it & want to do all the other upgrades to go with it.
Quote from: DP1400 on Sunday, 04 October 2020, 08:49 AM
SA14 - Erm, this thread is sounding really technical now. Think basics - if you`re not happy with the power delivery and general feel of the bike at low revs its always worth checking chain tension and throttle cable adjustment before concerning yourself with major unnecessary fixes. :onya:
Yeah, I agree. Just trying to collect all the information to make it run super smooth (or as smooth as possible). Outright power isn't my concern as it's already got plenty. I will look into all the things it could be before I bring in external tuning. I mean, I could be very happy with it as it is even if it is a bit snatchy. I can live with it but if I can tweak for smoothness and manners I will. Plus it's hobby. I like to fiddle with mechanical things, especially if they're right at the edge of my current abilities. Exploring is interesting to me.
SA14, have you done all the basics? They sure make it good.First 14 owners check list a good read and do. Everything i know set on mine, did yrs ago and hardly ever needs re doing. My ride home tonight, one of hundreds, always a pleasure. Do it all once, do it right, no need for much else.
Like DP1400 suggested simple things like chain and throttle adjustment can make a huge difference to how they ride. Those two simple things cost nothing.
Agree Kiwi. Tight throttle cables , chain adjust. If you have EK chain, set and forget.
Quote from: grog on Monday, 05 October 2020, 07:39 PM
SA14, have you done all the basics? They sure make it good.First 14 owners check list a good read and do. Everything i know set on mine, did yrs ago and hardly ever needs re doing. My ride home tonight, one of hundreds, always a pleasure. Do it all once, do it right, no need for much else.
I've done some (brakes, clutch, idle) but I'm not electrically minded so haven't set the TPS and don't have the 4 bar vacuum gauge thing to synchronise the throttle bodies (terminology?). I'll have to pay someone with the right equipment and understanding of electronics to do that. Haven't checked my tea bag or secured the filter with wire. Haven't done the PAIRS yet. It's all on the list.
Quote from: Kiwifruit on Monday, 05 October 2020, 07:51 PM
Like DP1400 suggested simple things like chain and throttle adjustment can make a huge difference to how they ride. Those two simple things cost nothing.
Haven't tried to adjust the throttle cables and the chain was cleaned and checked by the mechanic when I first got it. He also released the stuck brake pistons and I've bled all hydraulics.
Quote from: grog on Monday, 05 October 2020, 08:12 PM
Agree Kiwi. Tight throttle cables , chain adjust. If you have EK chain, set and forget.
Not sure what EK chain is.
If you can read a digital display on a multimeter you can set the TPS, it doesn't require any electrical knowledge past setting the meter to Ohms.
It is as simple as warming the bike up, set the idle to 1,100rpm, unplug the TPS, put the meter across two wires & turn the TPS till the meter reads 1,100Ohms.
I think that's the right Ohms, it's from memory.
Id get the throttles balanced first or it's a waste of time because the reading is bound to change when the throttles are adjusted. This is because the throttle cables work on No3, so you adjust the rest to match that one & the TPS works on No1.
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 05 October 2020, 09:19 PM
If you can read a digital display on a multimeter you can set the TPS, it doesn't require any electrical knowledge past setting the meter to Ohms.
It is as simple as warming the bike up, set the idle to 1,100rpm, unplug the TPS, put the meter across two wires & turn the TPS till the meter reads 1,100Ohms.
I think that's the right Ohms, it's from memory.
Id get the throttles balanced first or it's a waste of time because the reading is bound to change when the throttles are adjusted. This is because the throttle cables work on No3, so you adjust the rest to match that one & the TPS works on No1.
Ok, I'll give it a try after I get them balanced. Thanks.
Was just trying to read the Japenglish explanation for how to adjust the throttle cables. Failed to understand so I just went out to check it and it's barely anything, definitely within spec. 2mm at most. So that's fine at least.
There's a thread in the tech section showing which multiplug to use etc
https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/index.php?topic=263.0
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 05 October 2020, 09:19 PM
If you can read a digital display on a multimeter you can set the TPS, it doesn't require any electrical knowledge past setting the meter to Ohms.
It is as simple as warming the bike up, set the idle to 1,100rpm, unplug the TPS, put the meter across two wires & turn the TPS till the meter reads 1,100Ohms.
I think that's the right Ohms, it's from memory.
Id get the throttles balanced first or it's a waste of time because the reading is bound to change when the throttles are adjusted. This is because the throttle cables work on No3, so you adjust the rest to match that one & the TPS works on No1.
Yes, 1100 ohms is correct Hooli. Interesting your comment re throttle working on 3#.
Checked throttle linkage and cables all ok, then
I balanced mine on #1 (I.e brought #2 to #4 in line with #1) then set TPS. Maybe ill redo it based on #3 and go from there. Everyday is a school day.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Wednesday, 07 October 2020, 04:55 PM
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 05 October 2020, 09:19 PM
If you can read a digital display on a multimeter you can set the TPS, it doesn't require any electrical knowledge past setting the meter to Ohms.
It is as simple as warming the bike up, set the idle to 1,100rpm, unplug the TPS, put the meter across two wires & turn the TPS till the meter reads 1,100Ohms.
I think that's the right Ohms, it's from memory.
Id get the throttles balanced first or it's a waste of time because the reading is bound to change when the throttles are adjusted. This is because the throttle cables work on No3, so you adjust the rest to match that one & the TPS works on No1.
Yes, 1100 ohms is correct Hooli. Interesting your comment re throttle working on 3#.
Checked throttle linkage and cables all ok, then
I balanced mine on #1 (I.e brought #2 to #4 in line with #1) then set TPS. Maybe ill redo it based on #3 and go from there. Everyday is a school day.
If you look at the cables Eric you'll see what I mean about the cables actuate No3 TB, the other three TBs 'hang off' No3 with the balancing mechs. As long as they are all the same it doesn't matter which one you match the others too, as they all end up the same. My comment was following the logic that if No3 is at idle & you wind the adjusting screw for No1 (or No2) way out of adjustment then the TPS reading will change as the sensor is on No1.
From memory the factory manual says balance, 1+2, 3+4 then 2+3. But I really don't think it matters as long as they end up the same, allowing for you remembering that adjusting 2+3 will move No1 as well because that 'hangs off' No2. If that makes any sense, I know what I mean anyway.
Know what you mean, ive followed the manual, but agree they all end up the same. Next time might try setting them all to #3 just to see if any difference/improvement.
I have one of those Power Commander things on my Standard 14 it does seem to help. ;)