A number of the screws on our 1400's (and most Japanese bikes) might LOOK like Phillips heads - but aren't.
Using a Phillips driver will not work well, and can possibly lead to the screw head being stripped.
These screws as actually JIS type (Japanese Industrial Standard) and using the correct screwdriver as opposed to the wrong one is like chalk and cheese.
Use the right tool - get the right result. :onya:
The screws are usually (but not always) identified with a dot on the screw head, and the 'slots' may be shallower than what you are used to seeing on a Phillips.
(https://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/101617-japanese-screwdrivers-JIS-screw-marked.jpg)
Oh and notably JIS will happily drive phillips heads :)
This article goes into more detail with images etc.
https://revlimiter.net/blog/2014/09/the-japanese-phillips-jis-screwdrivers/
If anyone has any better references/links please let me know below, and I'll update this post.
Do you need a set of JIS drivers?
Well, it's an excuse to buy more tools so yes.
Certainly if you are working on a lot of jap bikes and/or machinery it'll pay dividends to invest in a set.
Consider also getting a few JIS impact drivers, if your existing impact driver set doesn't include any.
Alternatively if you only have a few screws to deal with and manage to get them out with a phillips, you could always replace them with a hex head or allen head type. (those have their own problems of course, but that's a whole other discussion)
For those interested in a more detailed look at the evolution of different screw driver systems this is a very interesting read:
https://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips/
see especially 7,8,10 when it comes to the topic at hand.
You'll see that the specific use case for which the phillips head was designed makes it less than ideal for other applications.
Agree, JIS work better. I have a Sun Flag stubby, reversible bit. JIS one way, flat the other. Over 40 yrs old and still like new. Even has ratchet head. Done a lot of work so i recommend Sun Flag as excellent.
My j.i.s. set
Only £10 from a bike show
Got mine from Japan - £30 delivered :)
VladTepes, are there a lot of these screws on our 14´s ? Never bothered to take a good look at them. I always like to use the proper tools for the proper job. Tools are my daily activity, on planes (well, not for now :thumbs_down:). When guys don´t know anything about tools I normally say that using the inadequate tool is like eating soup with a fork. I googled a lot about JIS and came to the conclusion that our 14´s must´ve only a few. As I say, didn´t bother to look. We´ve already threaded about this (https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/index.php?topic=3428.0). Back then I came across this https://www.webbikeworld.com/hozan-jis-screwdrivers-review/, and read the part "no more JIS screwdrivers". In my case I´ve always used Phillips, making sure they don´t cam out. One might eventually round the hole due to torque untightening. Just make sure it doesn´t cam out, if that´s the case there are several methods to avoid this. I´m gonna go down to the garage and take a good look at the 14, but then I might get her out and come back in a week. This confinement stuff...
Bought a Triumph instead - no need for JIS drivers then :happy1:
I bought a proper Triumph, no need for metric either :stir:
Jeykey - no not that many screws on teh 14, but a mention in a recent thread prompted me to write the post for the benefit of those who may not know about JIS.
Quote from: Hooli on Friday, 01 May 2020, 07:35 AM
I bought a proper Triumph
Quote from: gsxbarmy on Friday, 01 May 2020, 05:54 AM
Bought a Triumph
Need JIS screwdrivers? No.
But you will need a regular supply of drip pans and kitty litter.
Quote from: VladTepes on Friday, 01 May 2020, 09:19 AM
Jeykey - no not that many screws on teh 14, but a mention in a recent thread prompted me to write the post for the benefit of those who may not know about JIS.
Quote from: Hooli on Friday, 01 May 2020, 07:35 AM
I bought a proper Triumph
Quote from: gsxbarmy on Friday, 01 May 2020, 05:54 AM
Bought a Triumph
Need JIS screwdrivers? No.
But you will need a regular supply of drip pans and kitty litter.
and the breakdown guy will become a family friend :rofl2:
Carry on jesting you lot, needing all these special tools for your pimped up rice rockets - all us rockers need is a good hammer and screwdriver to fix our proper motorcycles :rofl2:
Quote from: gsxbarmy on Friday, 01 May 2020, 08:26 PM
Carry on jesting you lot, needing all these special tools for your pimped up rice rockets - all us rockers need is a good hammer and screwdriver to fix our proper motorcycles :rofl2:
and a computerised diagnostic tool :rofl2:
Quote from: Notty on Friday, 01 May 2020, 08:35 PM
Quote from: gsxbarmy on Friday, 01 May 2020, 08:26 PM
Carry on jesting you lot, needing all these special tools for your pimped up rice rockets - all us rockers need is a good hammer and screwdriver to fix our proper motorcycles :rofl2:
and a computerised diagnostic tool :rofl2:
No - sharp intake of breath followed by ooohhh that doesn't look good.... :happy1:
That jap crap will never catch on ya know.
You mean like indicators and electric start :rofl4: :laughsign:
Quote from: Tally on Friday, 01 May 2020, 10:50 PM
You mean like indicators and electric start :rofl4: :laughsign:
Exactly!
No electric foot on mine & the indicators got thrown away long before I got it, they won't be going back on either.
Quote from: gsxbarmy on Friday, 01 May 2020, 08:26 PM
Carry on jesting you lot, needing all these special tools for your pimped up rice rockets - all us rockers need is a good hammer and screwdriver to fix our proper motorcycles :rofl2:
And if that doesn't fix it, it must be an electrical fault! :happy1:
All good Barmy. Maybe were jealous. Good old Triumph days i remember.Bonnies, Tigers we could fix, Tridents a different story. Still were better than Norton Commando. A fix a day.
Well this thread has drifted a bit.
Barmy started the drift with trumpets . . . :happy1:
Quote from: KiwiCol on Tuesday, 05 May 2020, 10:47 AM
Barmy started the drift with trumpets . . . :happy1:
Yes sorry - need to give myself a :rulez: :redcard:
Quote from: KiwiCol on Tuesday, 05 May 2020, 10:47 AM
Barmy started the drift with trumpets . . . :happy1:
Grasser :whistling:
Was watching a FortNine video about "Special Tool Every Motorcyclist Should Own" and what should pop up 3/4 ways through the video but JIS Screw drivers. Thought I'd pop this here. I linked the video at the point at which he mentions Japanese Industrial Standard (which was discontinued in 2008 just like us!) but the whole video's not too bad to watch. For example I didn't know what a Pin Wrench was.
JIS part is at
8:27 (//JKZVc4JRY4A?t=507)
Mate, JIS work well. Impact driver and maybe a couple of others, youre set. https://rhinotools.com.au/product/vessel-jis-impact-screwdriver/
Quote from: grog on Monday, 16 November 2020, 07:37 PM
Mate, JIS work well. Impact driver and maybe a couple of others, youre set. https://rhinotools.com.au/product/vessel-jis-impact-screwdriver/
Added the impact and a few sets of JIS drivers to the cart for later.
In the video at the 9:40 mark he shows how some of the Vessel drivers are actually an impact driver too.
Quote from: SA14 on Monday, 16 November 2020, 07:44 PM
Quote from: grog on Monday, 16 November 2020, 07:37 PM
Mate, JIS work well. Impact driver and maybe a couple of others, youre set. https://rhinotools.com.au/product/vessel-jis-impact-screwdriver/
Added the impact and a few sets of JIS drivers to the cart for later.
In the video at the 9:40 mark he shows how some of the Vessel drivers are actually an impact driver too.
Yep, the JIS set i bought has two impact drivers, the silver handled ones. Best set of 'drivers ive got, just love them. I'm restoring a 2004 corolla sportivo for my kids to learn to drive in, use these JIS screwdrivers all the time. Also on the 1402 of course...
JIS has been discontinued? So I can look forward to more stripping philips heads in future then.
Quote from: VladTepes on Tuesday, 17 November 2020, 01:20 PM
JIS has been discontinued? So I can look forward to more stripping philips heads in future then.
Unless you modify your phillips head to become a JIS. Apparently the included angle needs to be around 57 degrees and you grind the tip off so it seats fully all the way down into the screw.
Got that info from this thread https://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15547 (https://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15547)
Some of the pics (nicked) from that thread below.
Excellent, I'd never found anything specifying the differences.
JIS work way better, even in Phillips screws. Just something to have. A bit like using multi point sockets to single hex, why would you. A lot of cars i work on now use Torx screws, just crappest, easiest to to strip shit ever. Theres even a variation on them, Jeep, Mercedes use, even worse. They dont undo, just break the tool youre using, nightmare stuff.
I ended up buying a Torx socket and key set because of a car I own, realised it when I went to change the oil. There is also Torx Plus for higher torque.
I've been discussing this on another forum & someone has found several things to say that the new DIN standard screwdrivers fit JIS. Anyone tried?
I thought DIN was a standard i.e. quality/strength :whatever:
I think DIN is a standards organisation, so the standards can apply to anything.
DIN = Deutsche Industrie Norm, or German Industry Standard
JIS = Japan Industry Norm.
Woyld need to check, but DIN is one of the most widely used standards for anything mechanical, and I would not be surprised if there's a DIN for "cross drive screws"
BS, AS and NZ standards are based on, or derivatives of, or sometimes the basis for other standards.
PHILLIPS heads or PH drivers are a "manufacturers" standard and not an industry standard, and are engineered to suit their own products, and in this case has made its way into everyday life.
TORX is another example, not an industry standard but a manufacturers standard that has some popularity.
A lot are copied from each other, especially European standards, so this is why we EN (European Norm) and ISO (international standards organisation) designs too.
Yeah it's like phillips designed their screws to be easy to strip the heads/torque to a unusable mess.
JIS is just like a firmly fitting flat blade driver BUT twice as effective as it can't slip.
It's just better-er.
Quote from: VladTepes on Sunday, 22 November 2020, 08:54 PM
Yeah it's like phillips designed their screws to be easy to strip the heads/torque to a unusable mess.
JIS is just like a firmly fitting flat blade driver BUT twice as effective as it can't slip.
It's just better-er.
Vlad, you nailed it! That's exactly why they were designed that way. From that other thread I linked to above...
QuotePortland native Henry Phillips invented the Phillips screws/drivers in the 1930s for application in automobile assembly lines.
His Phillips screwdrivers were built with an angle on the flanks and rounded corners. This taper on the driving faces causes the screwdriver bit to "cam out" of the slot before twisting a screw head off, which was a requirement for automated assembly lines. But what made it do well in that environment makes it prone to stripping when used by hand. Unlike a machine, a person has no way to deliver the specific downward force required, and the chances of stripping the head go way up. On the other hand, JIS screwdrivers have virtually parallel faces on the driving flanges and will not cam out. As a result, they will break whatever corrosion was keeping the screw from turning (good), or even strip the thread with excessive torque (bad).
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/1005003738438701.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.57c86ce7HKUlup&algo_pvid=c685f2de-5f63-4ae1-9960-252b22f28e96&algo_exp_id=c685f2de-5f63-4ae1-9960-252b22f28e96-0&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21EUR%2119.55%2119.55%2116.62%21%2120.79%21%21%402145274c16888983638887025d0754%2112000026991778269%21sea%21ES%210&curPageLogUid=5etSrRpl3KDL
:whistling:
That's way too cheap to be the real deal. Great find if they're legit.
aliexpress = treat with suspicion.
Wish = scam
temu = like wish but cheaper so yeah draw you own conclusion on that.
I must defend Temu here, I've brought lots off that site, never had a problem & fast delivery. I actually have stuff on the way now, I get updates whenever there's some new milestone. They tell me where it's at in China, when it goes to customs, when it leaves customs, when it leaves the country, when it arrives in NZ etc etc. They also have it pre-cleared customs in NZ as soon as it leaves China, so the shipment can be delivered on time, usually 9-10 days. Happy enough with their service & prices.
Couple of hic-ups using Ali-express, but they've always sorted things in my favour, they do take an absolute age to get you your stuff though.
Wish, yeah think I used them a couple of times for stuff, but that was ages ago. Don't use them now.
Quote from: barbastro on Sunday, 09 July 2023, 08:29 PMhttps://es.aliexpress.com/item/1005003738438701.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.57c86ce7HKUlup&algo_pvid=c685f2de-5f63-4ae1-9960-252b22f28e96&algo_exp_id=c685f2de-5f63-4ae1-9960-252b22f28e96-0&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21EUR%2119.55%2119.55%2116.62%21%2120.79%21%21%402145274c16888983638887025d0754%2112000026991778269%21sea%21ES%210&curPageLogUid=5etSrRpl3KDL
:whistling:
Those prices are for individual screwdrivers, not a set. Click each photo & see the price change.
Just buy a set of bits, $20, fit in 8mm socket or drill.
I have two sets. Both made by Vessel.
4 sizes in each. I use them quite a bit, in JIS and Philips.
I keep meaning to get some 8mm bits.
I've got two sets of these & can't fault them.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/265202915041?chn=ps&_ul=AU&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1ymWPLyUgRLyGB3OsVH7tbg58&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=265202915041&targetid=1740279243569&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9071714&poi=&campaignid=18277121424&mkgroupid=142426603833&rlsatarget=pla-1740279243569&abcId=9301724&merchantid=115492311&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnrmlBhDHARIsADJ5b_l2Q_rGKyawX5ay2YjEtH5hCRdKT8zhnWnVpzjduU7C329GzqdhBbIaAhhBEALw_wcB
Mine I bought a while ago IMG_0128.JPGIMG_0116.JPG