Hello all,
I apologise upfront if I have missed any mention of this topic before, but I have scoured this forum and have not found an answer to my question.
Here goes.
My 14 is a 2007, standard, all except the clip on yoshi muffler which was on the bike when I purchased it.
Bike runs smooth as silk at idle, throttling on, throttling off etc. Problem is, it won't handle well coasting at low speeds, unless I really really really concentrate hard on holding throttle dead still! Making it a burden to ride.
So, fuel filter cleaned, new air filter, new spark plugs. Still the same. I've read up on TPS, throttle body balancing etc. Before I try all of this, I was wondering, does the ECU need to be remapped when a clip on muffler is fitted?
I've also noticed, bike will run fine at low speeds when it's cold, but not when hot. Could this be that when it gets to running temp, the fuel mixture leans out, and there's not enough back pressure due to different muffler.
I will re fit original muffler today and start from there. I know there's probably a multitude of answers to this, and again I apologise if I've missed a thread on this subject. Very frustrating, bike is absolutely beautiful to ride other than at low speed 🤷♂️
Thanks in advance everyone.
Gidday Fieldmouse, welcome to the forum. I see you've been a member for a while, but just not posted.
Now, this jerkiness at low speed & light throttle, chain tension comes to mind as does seized links.
The ECU does not need a re-map for the Yoshi end can, so not much point in putting the bazooka back on.
Check the clutch switch isn't bridged & is working correctly, the ECU runs a different map at start up (richer) maybe yours is stuck on that 'start' map.
There's a wee 'trick' you can use & hear the maps being swapped. Once warm, sit on it (at ldle) with clutch in and in gear, as if waiting to go from the lights, now just ever so slightly (before the clutch even takes up) let the clutch lever out n watch the rev counter, it should increase by a couple of hundred revs in anticipation of you taking off. I believe that's the maps swapping in. Once you see it & hear it, it's quite obvious.
Try the things above, I picking chain myself.
Welcome Fieldmouse. How high or low is your idle speed when engine is hot / cold?
Hi KiwiCol,
Yep, been a quiet member for a while now, I try not to annoy anyone 😁. Mate, glad you don't reckon it's the exhaust, stuff me, the original is huge and heavy right! I've read how to check for bridged clutch, so I'll try that (how on earth does that affect the performance 😳). Anyway, chain is near new, and lubricated after every ride. Tension?, well I'm guessing too slack would create jerkiness? But cruises nicely in fifth and sixth gear without jerkiness. Do lower speeds create a more sensitive feedback through the chain than higher speeds??
On start up, revs shoot up to around 1800, but within ten seconds, it's settled at 1000rpm, where I've set it with idle screw.
I'll check map setting with clutch as you've stated what to do, and get back to you. Probably won't try that until Saturday. It's forty degrees outside at the moment, and fifty in the shed 🥵🥵🥵. Thanks KiwiCol, or in my best kiwi, Chur bro
@ Kotka, thank you for the welcome mate.
When engine is cold, it will roughly shoot up to 18-2000 rpm, but quickly settle down to 1000 rpm. When at running temperature, it's set to idle at 1000 rpm.
Check throttle cable adjustment, can make them jerky to ride slowly.
I have a 2006 (87000kms) which has the same symptoms at low revs. I have a Yoshi slip on. I have brand new chain and sprockets, brand new plugs, brand new genuine air filter, brand new new clutch switch and brand new new side stand switch. I've replaced the air tubes between throttle bodies, injectors cleaned and brand new Suzuki fuel pump and filter. Blanked off PAIRS. Shop set TPS and replaced some other ???sensor and it's running pretty good though a little rough on constant throttle around 3500. Not much else I can do. I think the biggest improver to date has been the new chain and sprockets.
I was reading about a guy who had the same symptoms and he wound his idle down to 800 and he said the jerkiness virtually disappeared. I have also wound my idle down to 800 and have to report that I got the same result. Much smoother below 2000. However I have taken the idle back up to 1000 and am suffering the jerkiness by hauling in the clutch at lower revs.
PLEASE let me know if you find a solution. Good Luck.
Pretty sure the idle should be 1100. Some knowledgeable chaps run theirs at 1200 - AlphaDave did.
Quote from: Fieldmouse on Thursday, 20 February 2020, 03:32 PM
When engine is cold, it will roughly shoot up to 18-2000 rpm, but quickly settle down to 1000 rpm. When at running temperature, it's set to idle at 1000 rpm.
Easy test. Set your hot idle to 1100 to 1200 rpm. It may help.
I have to use 1300 to 1400 rpm idle speed, otherwise the turbo will stop totally on idle.
Only disadvantage is that sound when connecting first gear from neutral.
Quote from: BJ on Thursday, 20 February 2020, 04:07 PM
I have a 2006 (87000kms) which has the same symptoms at low revs. I have a Yoshi slip on. I have brand new chain and sprockets, brand new plugs, brand new genuine air filter, brand new new clutch switch and brand new new side stand switch. I've replaced the air tubes between throttle bodies, injectors cleaned and brand new Suzuki fuel pump and filter. Blanked off PAIRS. Shop set TPS and replaced some other ???sensor and it's running pretty good though a little rough on constant throttle around 3500. Not much else I can do. I think the biggest improver to date has been the new chain and sprockets.
I was reading about a guy who had the same symptoms and he wound his idle down to 800 and he said the jerkiness virtually disappeared. I have also wound my idle down to 800 and have to report that I got the same result. Much smoother below 2000. However I have taken the idle back up to 1000 and am suffering the jerkiness by hauling in the clutch at lower revs.
PLEASE let me know if you find a solution. Good Luck.
Wowsers BJ,
What haven't you replaced!!!😳
I don't like my chances now 😂. I certainly will let you know if I work it out. I don't like the idea of raising idle to 1200/1300 as mine clunks like hell when selecting 1st gear too. That's why I usually select 1st gear whilst rolling up to red lights to eliminate the load on the gearbox.
Quote from: BJ on Thursday, 20 February 2020, 04:07 PMI think the biggest improver to date has been the new chain and sprockets.
Did you check the rubber cush drive behind the sprocket carrier.
Replace the vacuum lines including the t piece connectors on all the throttle bodies, plus remove and blank the pairs valves if that hasnt been done already. Vacuum hose is really cheap off ebay, same with the connectors.
My K3 had exactly the same, i even replaced the clutch pack, front and rear discs, new tyres, engine oil, checked chain and sprockets, but nothing helped.
Changed the vac lines 3 weeks ago and its a different bike....nice and smooth down low.
Oh, and the 1800rpm on startup then dropping down is the secondary throttle actuator working correctly, its designed for cold weather starts. Idle needs to be 1100rpm, in my experience less than that and it increases the chance of stalling on 1st gear take off, too high and the shock load when selecting 1st can get a bit much
Had the same thing a couple of years ago and found the IAP or the AP (same unit) sensor was shagged. These are the air pressure sensors in the vacuum lines Eric mentioned, I swapped them over and the symptoms changed so I replaced one with another I got from a forum member (don't know which was which after several swaps) and the bike has been perfect since. I also agree with Eric that tick over should be 1100 rpm for best results.
I`ll go with Kiwifruit - check your throttle cable free play (and cable routing). If you don`t have the neccessary 2-4mm you`ll have a problem riding the bike smoothly on anything other than an opening throttle. OK, it doesn`t explain the cold/hot running scenario you`ve mentioned, but its always worth checking out the simple stuff before contemplating stripping the bike down..... :whistling:
I think this lot have already covered it, in my experience it's one of this & normally in this order -
too much slack in the throttle cables, I have mine as tight as I can without it revving as I turn the bars
chain slack
throttles out of balance
vac pipes from the throttle bodies perished
As to your question on how the clutch switch affects performance. When the clutch is in it switches to a 'starting map' which changes the fueling & ignition advance. If I run mine with the switch bridged it drinks fuel & backfires like a shotgun when I roll off.
Ok gents,
Thank you very much for your ideas and help, I very much appreciate your feedback. I'll have a crack at all the ideas mentioned, and see what happens. I shall post my results. Also, I will test ride after each separate job I tackle, in the hope that when the jerkiness disappears, I'll know what the fix was.
Thanks again all.
I had something like this, dreadful around town on a constant throttle.
Only lasted till I filled up with petrol again so I'm guessing it was a duff/old batch of fuel.
It was the super unleaded from a supermarket, rather regular unleaded, so I assume they don't sell as much.
it could be old fuel m8 but my 1400 was much the same at low revs . i fitted a power commander which got rid of the low rev touchyness and allows u to remap
Quote from: Mr gsx1400 on Friday, 21 February 2020, 09:25 PM
it could be old fuel m8 but my 1400 was much the same at low revs . i fitted a power commander which got rid of the low rev touchyness and allows u to remap
My 14 is totally stock from new and runs and has always run fine with 100,000 klms on the clock, so if I get problems a power commander will fix it! BTW the rocker cover or anything else has never been off it.
So you mean thriving on neglect Irish...... :stir:
A power commander won't fix it, it'll allow you to dial out the problem. 14s are smooth as standard so jerkyness is a fault.
Quote from: Kiwifruit on Saturday, 22 February 2020, 07:39 AM
So you mean thriving on neglect Irish...... :stir:
Not from riding, but it's sitting up now for about 18 months so I'm sure when I fire it up in about 9 months time it will come up with every fault code there is.
But I'm not worried because it will be sorted here :)
I fired up a 14 that's sat for about 10 years once. All it needed was the throttles balancing as it was idling on two & it was fine.
It got fresh oil & all that malarky, but it didn't have any issues at all.
Quote from: Irish in Oz on Saturday, 22 February 2020, 07:53 AM
Quote from: Kiwifruit on Saturday, 22 February 2020, 07:39 AM
So you mean thriving on neglect Irish...... :stir:
Not from riding, but it's sitting up now for about 18 months so I'm sure when I fire it up in about 9 months time it will come up with every fault code there is.
But I'm not worried because it will be sorted here :)
Are you heading back to Aussie in 9 months? Has it been 18 months since you went back 'home'? Geez, that went quick.
Ok fellas, lifted idle from 1000 to 1100, made a considerable difference. I did wait until it reached normal running temperature. Ever so slight jerkiness now. I dropped mine to 1000 as I also didn't like the sound when selecting first gear. The only thing I find now, is there isn't as much engine braking as before. Throttle cable adjustment is fine. Will take tank off and inspect vacuum lines. I have noticed, TPS has never been touched, bike is in mint condition, and only done 17K on clock. Should TPS need to be checked at these relatively low k's ?
Quote from: KiwiCol on Thursday, 20 February 2020, 01:55 PM
Gidday Fieldmouse, welcome to the forum. I see you've been a member for a while, but just not posted.
Now, this jerkiness at low speed & light throttle, chain tension comes to mind as does seized links.
The ECU does not need a re-map for the Yoshi end can, so not much point in putting the bazooka back on.
Check the clutch switch isn't bridged & is working correctly, the ECU runs a different map at start up (richer) maybe yours is stuck on that 'start' map.
There's a wee 'trick' you can use & hear the maps being swapped. Once warm, sit on it (at ldle) with clutch in and in gear, as if waiting to go from the lights, now just ever so slightly (before the clutch even takes up) let the clutch lever out n watch the rev counter, it should increase by a couple of hundred revs in anticipation of you taking off. I believe that's the maps swapping in. Once you see it & hear it, it's quite obvious.
Try the things above, I picking chain myself.
Kiwi Col.
Clutch isn't bridged, and I did as you said and tested to see if it switches between maps in anticipation to take off, and it certainly does do that also.
Like alot of us I'll address the elephant in the room.
You say your having problems with 'jerking at low revs/speeds' ....
Mate, I went through puberty 40 odd years ago and I never had problems 'jerking at ........
:cheers:
Sheepie, was waiting for a reply like yours. :)
Quote from: Fieldmouse on Saturday, 22 February 2020, 01:16 PMI have noticed, TPS has never been touched, bike is in mint condition, and only done 17K on clock. Should TPS need to be checked at these relatively low k's ?
Ideally both TPS should be adjusted every time the throttles are balanced, so yes it's worth doing even on a low mileage bike.
I'd definitely checking throttle body balance and then re calibrating the TPS.
Good luck :onya:
Quote from: froudy on Sunday, 23 February 2020, 02:15 AM
I'd definitely checking throttle body balance and then re calibrating the TPS.
Good luck :onya:
Hey Froudy,
Checked TPS, and can't get it lower than 1.4. Is there any use balancing throttle bodies if TPS is out? Do I need new sensor? Got same reading from two multimeters.
Maybe a redhead match will solve the issue 🤬
There are a few bikes out there with TPS that just won't go to 1100 & they run fine. I had 1, figured it was crook so bought a new one $168 from memory & it gave the exact same reading as the one I took off! :furious: So I now have a spare TPS & the bike runs fine (by me) with the original one.
Moral here, don't think your TPS is bung if you can't get it to 1100ohm, I think it's more to do with the difference between high & low readings, but that could be way wrong, just my assumption.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Sunday, 23 February 2020, 10:48 AM
There are a few bikes out there with TPS that just won't go to 1100 & they run fine. I had 1, figured it was crook so bought a new one $168 from memory & it gave the exact same reading as the one I took off! :furious: So I now have a spare TPS & the bike runs fine (by me) with the original one.
Moral here, don't think your TPS is bung if you can't get it to 1100ohm, I think it's more to do with the difference between high & low readings, but that could be way wrong, just my assumption.
Yes Col,
I've read your thread and the issues you've had, so I'm a bit reluctant to buy one just yet. Lifting my idle to 1100 instead of 1000 made a huge difference. Can only just feel the bike playing up. Might leave it like this for a bit and 🤞my fingers. It's tolerable 👍
It also depends on at which connector you check resistance at. If at the main connector, the ohms will be higher as there is more inline resitance. At the actual connector for the TPS, plus with your battery being fully charged, youve got the best chance of getting the right reading. Also check that your throttle valves have full range of motion.
Righto,
Glad to say, problem has been eliminated. If you've followed my journey, you've seen what I've done. Today, to add to it all, I tightened all throttle body intake clips, some had quite a bit of adjustment.
I also adjusted throttle cables, and I certainly believe now this is where the problem was. Must've been too much free play. I've taken it to around two millimeters of free play, and the bike is just completely different. Absolutely no jerkiness at all now!!!
Thank you all for your input, even the jokes that frustrated me even more, as I thought to myself "well your bike must run fine", when my heap of 💩 doesn't!
I will return to the quiet corner of the forum. Thank you all 👍👍👍
Good, great result Mr Mouse. Throttle cables i have as tight as i can get, as Hooli said, just enough to not change revs when bars turned. TPS, 1.1 k ohms closed at sensor. I only worry about closed resistance. Idle speed 1100, mine cuts out at less. Healtech ATRE fitted, can of worms but certainly helped mine. I ride other bikes and always amazed just how smooth 14 is, any revs, any gear. Just my 10 cents worth.
Good on ya mate, stuck with it & sorted it. :onya: :clapping:
Quote from: KiwiCol on Saturday, 22 February 2020, 10:05 AM
Quote from: Irish in Oz on Saturday, 22 February 2020, 07:53 AM
Quote from: Kiwifruit on Saturday, 22 February 2020, 07:39 AM
So you mean thriving on neglect Irish...... :stir:
Not from riding, but it's sitting up now for about 18 months so I'm sure when I fire it up in about 9 months time it will come up with every fault code there is.
But I'm not worried because it will be sorted here :)
Are you heading back to Aussie in 9 months? Has it been 18 months since you went back 'home'? Geez, that went quick.
2 years in May going back for a while in Oct/Nov after the long hot summer.
Quote from: grog on Sunday, 23 February 2020, 04:14 PM
Good, great result Mr Mouse. Throttle cables i have as tight as i can get, as Hooli said, just enough to not change revs when bars turned. TPS, 1.1 k ohms closed at sensor. I only worry about closed resistance. Idle speed 1100, mine cuts out at less. Healtech ATRE fitted, can of worms but certainly helped mine. I ride other bikes and always amazed just how smooth 14 is, any revs, any gear. Just my 10 cents worth.
Thanks Grog,
I'm certain mine was a cable issue. My TPS is at 1300 at the sensor plug, no adjustment left. My will definitely idle lower, so I might try 1000 rpm again just to reduce shock load selecting f1st gear. But other than that mate, the old girl is just amazing to ride now, because I fair had the 💩's on with her riding at low revs/speeds.
Anyway, I hope, although as easy as it turned out to be, it could be helpful to others in the future.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Sunday, 23 February 2020, 04:16 PM
Good on ya mate, stuck with it & sorted it. :onya: :clapping:
Thanks Col, I appreciate your help 👍
Not sure where you are mr mouse, but a TRE (timing retard eliminator) is also perhaps a good idea. Steve at Rated R parts here in perth WA sells them, makes a big difference, and its pure plug and play.
Type this into ebay: Auto TRE SUZUKI Timing Retard Eliminator - GSX1400 Smart ATRE GSX-1400
Glad its all worked out, vacuum leaks can be pita to track down.
Quote from: Fieldmouse on Sunday, 23 February 2020, 10:35 AM
Quote from: froudy on Sunday, 23 February 2020, 02:15 AM
I'd definitely checking throttle body balance and then re calibrating the TPS.
Good luck :onya:
Hey Froudy,
Checked TPS, and can't get it lower than 1.4. Is there any use balancing throttle bodies if TPS is out? Do I need new sensor? Got same reading from two multimeters.
Maybe a redhead match will solve the issue 🤬
Yes & no.
As others have said depends where you check the resistance as to what it reads but it's still worth balancing the throttles as that means all cylinders are running equal throttle.
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Sunday, 23 February 2020, 09:00 PM
Not sure where you are mr mouse, but a TRE (timing retard eliminator) is also perhaps a good idea. Steve at Rated R parts here in perth WA sells them, makes a big difference, and its pure plug and play.
Type this into ebay: Auto TRE SUZUKI Timing Retard Eliminator - GSX1400 Smart ATRE GSX-1400
Glad its all worked out, vacuum leaks can be pita to track down.
Righto, thanks Eric, I will have a look mate.
Cheers
Quote from: Hooli on Monday, 24 February 2020, 04:06 AM
Quote from: Fieldmouse on Sunday, 23 February 2020, 10:35 AM
Quote from: froudy on Sunday, 23 February 2020, 02:15 AM
I'd definitely checking throttle body balance and then re calibrating the TPS.
Good luck :onya:
Hey Froudy,
Checked TPS, and can't get it lower than 1.4. Is there any use balancing throttle bodies if TPS is out? Do I need new sensor? Got same reading from two multimeters.
Maybe a redhead match will solve the issue 🤬
Yes & no.
As others have said depends where you check the resistance as to what it reads but it's still worth balancing the throttles as that means all cylinders are running equal throttle.
Hooli,
Where can I find thread on here about throttle body balancing. I've plugged it into forum search engine, but got nothing 🤷♂️ I've got the balancer, but am wondering how to access the intakes to the throttle bodies. I've looked in through air box, but not enough room. I did the old hose to the ear and listen trick.
I hope airbox doesn't have to be removed?!
Cheers mate
Here ya go Fieldmouse.
https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/index.php?topic=4631.0
Quote from: KiwiCol on Monday, 24 February 2020, 12:21 PM
Here ya go Fieldmouse.
https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/index.php?topic=4631.0
Cheers Col,
I plugged "balancing throttle bodies" into search engine, but nothing. Anyway, I knew someone would come through.
Thanks again champ 👍