So...
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LONDON (Reuters) - Britain will ban the sale of new petrol, diesel and hybrid cars from 2035, five years earlier than planned, in an attempt to reduce air pollution that could herald the end of over a century of reliance on the internal combustion engine.
Trying to outdo France and Germany in the pseudo-environmental credentials bragging rights?
In England (and other European Countries) with their relatively small geographical areas it is, theoretically at least, to build a sufficient number of charging points to maintain national electric vehicle fleet.
(Not at all likely, but theoretically possible) Naturally to electricity with which to charge all those cars has to come from somewhere ands I'm not convinced that solar panels, windmills and good intentions are going to cut it.
So many nations (Europe, UK) are drawing a line in the sand for manufacturing of ICE powered cars (or do they mean ALL ICE powered vehicles?) and America likely to head down that same path (California has already announced a 2040 date - which is easy for them as they don't manufacture any ICE cars in that state, to my knowledge) we can foresee a number of inevitable results.
We know that not every car company has the resources to develop competitive electric vehicles on their own. This means that companies must co-operate / purchase /merge with other manufacturers to share these development costs. This will result in job losses.
Electric motors are FAR less complex and simpler to manufacture than ICEs - this will result in job losses both directly and indirectly (factory workers and suppliers of all the parts necessary for construction and engine maintenance over time).
There is a flow on effect too. As stated smaller nations with more resources (more population = more tax = more capital to spend on charging points) will ultimately be able to adapt to an electric vehicle future.
HOWEVER countries like ours - Australia - face a much bigger problem. Distance.
We already have trouble maintaining our road network as we have MANY more kms of road than any European country, yet a lower population than most of them. So fewer $ per km of road, by a long way.
To run Australia on electric chargers would mean that for a decent journey people would have to charge their cars numerous times along the way adding a lot of time to already typically long ones.
How would we access the remote areas of the country? It simply won't be possible to build charging stations at Cape York, in the middle of the bush, in the middle of the deserts etc. Well,, you could build them but they would break down or be vandalised or whatever and any electric vehicle would then be permanently stuck.
The distances involved would reduce tourism to regional areas - a death knell for many rural towns.
And has anyone given consideration to how we could possibly fight bushfires without diesel powered fire appliances? Sure as heck a fleet of electric fire engines will NOT cut it.
Now that's not to say that Australia would follow suit and ban ICE sales in 2035/40 (unless of course, Greta tells us too ::) ) but where would these vehicles come from.
If there were no market in Europe and the US then none of those car manufacturers will continue to manufacture ICE vehicles. We no longer have a domestic car manufacturing industry (in the light of all this, perhaps a major miscalculation on the government's behalf - both sides of politics).
What will Asia do?
Japan would likely go electric and ban ICE (with nuclear reactors etc they have no shortage of electricity)
Korea? Political and international pressure will probably force them out of the ICE game too.
Thailand? Who knows.
China? Are already moving toward electric in their cities for local pollution reasons, rather than 'climate change'. With the size of their country I think they'll be producing ICE for a while longer than 2040.
And most of all, of course, nobody has really explained where all the lithium is going to come from...
There's plenty for current demand, and for a while if it were to increase at the current rate of adoption.
But a ramp up of what is proposed - likely not.
It's not just lithium for batteries, either. Electric motors require a suite of rare-earth metals (significantly more than does any ICE).
Competition for these resources will be 'interesting' in a geopolitical sense.
Most importantly - does this also apply to motorcycles?
If so, 2034 or 2039 is going to be an all time bumper year for new ICE motorcycle sales!
So, without having a partisan political / climate change argument.. what are YOUR thoughts one these bans and on my thoughts?
As there is very little charging infrastructure it seems the next 15 years will be digging up the whole of the Uk to put in larger capacity cables.Then we will need new sources of power and as there are currently 21Million vehicles in the UK that's a lot of electric in the next 40 years. I would imagine the sales of petrol and diesel cars will start to drop very quickly over the next 10 years and as you say yet more job losses. Yet 47 cruise ships produce the same as 100 million cars? 350+ cruise ships currently operating so haven't we got it wrong? :bugga:
Petrol or diesel for me. Ive seen a lithium explosion.
Vlad did you just mention Greta ? ......... how dare you !!
While away l got talking to a Suzuki car dealer.
Asked him about Hybrid vehicles. Why would you he says. We are getting under 5 litres per 100kms and still improving.
To be fair l am sick of having climate change rammed down my throat by the pollies. lf they really want to make a change lets kill off all those nasty methane producing farting cows, then lets stop the nearly 5 million tourist coming here each year. Should fix the carbon problem pretty quick . Country would be broke in no time.
l would prefer to have a go at zero waste. The amount of plastic packaging we bring home is a joke and much of it so unneccessary. The amount of waste we put into landfill sites here is immense.
Sorry starting to ramble, but you get my drift.
Our government tend to over react to some things. When we only had to cut co2 they pushed diesel cars and said they were better, now they want to ban them from entering cities. Electric cars have no range so are not a lot of use to a lot of people, I cannot reach the outlaws on a single charge on anything other than a £90k tesla (which ain't gonna happen) where as my diesel merc can go there and come back on a tank full. I think that as with diesel they have not thought of the impact of banning all IEC cars as the manufacture and disposal of batteries will increase emissions and so will have no real effect. As for bikes as long as they have a piss range I cannot ever see me buying one. The other big problem is the stats given for electric cars are crap, they are always give on a best case condition, warmish bright day with good visibility, dry and flat roads. In reality when it's bloody cold, (or very warm) driving at night in pissing rain the lights, wipers, heater or air con will be going flat out and the range will soon plummet and continue to get worse over the years as the batteries decay. Just my thoughts on the subject.
From MCN - motorcycles not included in ban (I guess for the moment): https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/petrol-ban-motorbikes/ (https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/petrol-ban-motorbikes/)
As mjgt has said, typical knee jerk reaction by our govt. You would think, if alternative transport means are to be used in the future, that the powers that be would ensure that the ability to support it was in place first. I'm no expert in these matters but it seems a stretch to me to be able to have the infrastructure to power millions of electric vehicles available in fifteen years.
Perhaps the intention is to put the majority back on foot or pushbikes!
I also wonder if a country the size of ours will greatly impact on the climate by these efforts. Am I the only one, as much as I love my country, who thinks we hold ourselves in too high a regard :stir:
Quote from: VladTepes on Thursday, 06 February 2020, 10:52 AM
How would we access the remote areas of the country?
@VladTepes Ask one of the old aborigines. They might remember how this can be done :rofl2:
The auto club I am in just changed its stance on a general speed limit on the Autobahn from against to neutral. Mind you that our parliament voted against that speed limit 3 months before that! Why would the auto club do this? Certainly not for the reason they gave. The past magazines published by the club looked like an advertisement paper for electric cars and autonomous driving. VW is going all the way over to e-cars. The car manufacturers here sit on their e-cars. People just don't buy them. E-cars benefit from that speed limit while autonomous driving sensors can't deal with high speed situations.
I canceled my membership and joined another auto club who adheres to its stance against the speed limit. BTW I very rarely ride on the Autobahn. Not really affected by that speed limit. BUT I hate the manipulation that is going on by the "climate-industry".
Synthetic fuel is the way to go IMO. The technology is there to pull CO2 out of the atmosphere and produce petrol, kerosene, hydrogen, and more by using regenerative energy. We got plenty of regenerative energy we can't use and at times have to pay for to dump it into our neighbors power grids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hatav_Rdnno
Climate change? Sick to death of hearing those words.
Vegan? Precious ill-informed fools.
Electric cars? I just arrived home from a very enjoyable, trouble free 240mile fishing trip. A journey I couldn`t possibly have done in an electric car due to the total lack of charging points at my destination and en-route. Even my longest extension lead would have only got me to the end of my driveway............so i`m out! :furious:
There are a number of reasons why almost all electric cars are not allowed/able to tow trailers.
The main reason nobody mentions: If they were allowed to tow trailers, people would mount a generator and a fuel tank on them :happy1:
That's the only way Charlie and Ewan could make their latest documentary while riding "green" Harley livewires, they had 5 or 6 back up trucks with generators on them for charging the bikes up every hour or so. That's well green :whistling:
my thoughts:
Climate change is real. There is nothing to argue about.
BUT, is it because of human activity or it have it's natural causes - this is a big question.
As I see it - it's very profitably for some parties, to keep pushing the idea what climate is changing because of anthropological impact. The reasons are quite simple: money and political power. Money - financing of researches for some and taxes for another. And those another are getting more votes after they supports horror stories and promise to find solutions to avoid global disasters...
Mass media is also is getting benefits, by translating what we all going to die in near future (horror stories are selling better).
Anthropological reasons of current climate change is not a scientific fact (as it is translated most of the times) but consensus which is not proved by modern science. Still not, even it's such a hot topic over the last years.
But the problem is, because so many people and even governments are getting benefits of the situation when it's considered as most important world problem, it will be very hard to publicly accept and prove the fact climate change may be most likely have natural causes, because it will mean most environmental taxes and studies are frauds...
One thing more: anthropological reasons of current climate change is taking people attention away from another (this time 100% real) problem - garbage. I think, humanity could deal with this issue much more, then with CO2 emissions...
Now regarding the ICE's.
I'm asking: what will be in 10-15 years, when there became time, when people will face issue with old EV batteries? Because of getting more electric vehicles means more batteries, and recycling of lithium batteries is not the easiest process. And this will make ecological footprint of electric vehicle bigger then footprint of ICE vehicle...
I will not be surprised, if in 15 years, there will be new wave, when small diesel engines will be most ecological transportation options in the world :)
Quote from: northern on Sunday, 09 February 2020, 06:17 AM
my thoughts:
Climate change is real. There is nothing to argue about.
BUT, is it because of human activity or it have it's natural causes - this is a big question.
...
Exactly.
Quote from: Andre on Saturday, 08 February 2020, 10:34 AM
There are a number of reasons why almost all electric cars are not allowed/able to tow trailers.
The main reason nobody mentions: If they were allowed to tow trailers, people would mount a generator and a fuel tank on them :happy1:
Quote from: VladTepes on Monday, 10 February 2020, 11:44 AM
Quote from: northern on Sunday, 09 February 2020, 06:17 AM
my thoughts:
Climate change is real. There is nothing to argue about.
BUT, is it because of human activity or it have it's natural causes - this is a big question.
...
Exactly.
Well it was warmer in Roman times than now, I'm pretty sure their bullock carts weren't V8 powered & it was colder in Victorian times (a mini ice age technically). So we know climate change is natural.
I particularly like how they predict changes around 1% from models with 3-4% error margins & so on.
Scientists aren't going to earn much money or the government steal more tax if they all fess up to knowing that the earth goes through natural cycles of hot/cold, the UK was once a tropical hot spot with a huge rain forest (it's now called coal) and it also had an ice age with massive glaciers which left us huge valleys and the Scottish highlands. I accept that man is not helping and is possibly speeding things up but to make us pay for the earth going through it's natural cycle is a bit steep. Even if we stop everything and even stop farting the earth will still warm up.
30 % of the housing stock in Cardiff is terraced. When I bought my first house ( terraced) it was probably one car for every two houses. 30 years on its quite often 2 cars + per house - ok . Trying to park is now 3 times around the the block and end up 100 yards away from where you live.So, how the hell do you charge your electric car? so the answer is we dig up every street, because the cables aren't of sufficient capacity, and you will need charging points outside every house otherwise its cables across the pavements. Those twats in government haven't thought of the practicalities n :bugga: but loads of jobs :)
Well said Notty, you took the words rightout of my mouth. And imagine all those cables hanging out of the windows of those tower blocks..... :rofl2:
Yeah but the next stage will be to restrict our ability to travel, sheep who've never been far & don't know about the world are easier to govern.
Quote from: DP1400 on Sunday, 16 February 2020, 09:41 PM
Well said Notty, you took the words rightout of my mouth. And imagine all those cables hanging out of the windows of those tower blocks..... :rofl2:
On the council estates in Cardiff they run cables from the lamposts to steal the electricity so guess they will be able to help build the infrastructure !! :)
The lamp post outside my gaff here has a 16amp socket on it for xmas lights, thankfully they never put xmas lights up though.
I do wonder how well it'd power a workshop at times.
Caravans run on 16 amps (max) should be able to power your shed no worries. Just don't expect it to run a 3 phase mill or lathe
Works for me Hooli :onya:
That looks familiar - surely that photo has got to be India.
China, India, Vietnam most countries who don't have monopolies running their Internet and phones. :jack: :jack: :jack: :stir: :stir: :stir:
Shouldn`t you fully unwind your extension cable before using it....? :whistling:
Greta Who! Stupid little girl - go figure what all our clothes are made from and I bet she rides a bicycle! with rubber tyres and steel/alloy frame! - Stupid little girl!
Huawei 5G in Shanghai
Just been sent this, quite interesting and some stunning roads pity about the weather. It's filmed on the honister pass in Cumbria.
tCcZXBLu7GE
Enjoyed the video, if not the bikes themselves. A beautiful part of the world, Cumbria. Even in the rain!
Global warming hoax? Goes without saying.
In the `big freeze`winter of 1963, we had so much snow you couldn`t see the tops of hedgerows in some areas.
In the summer of 1976 we had baking heat and not a drop of rain for weeks.
I don`t recall global warming being mentioned on either occasion. It was called THE WEATHER back then. Happy days!
Indeed.
No drop of rain for weeks?
Hold my beer..
Yeah but we're in a country that doesn't think rain just happened once at the beginning of the dreamtime and has hidden underground ever since.
We just had climate change here i think. No rain for months then 600 since start of year. That must be what they mean.