Battery problems today on K5 showed no charge at the battery. The manual says remove sprocket cover, undo plug & check OHMS reading between the 3 yellow wires, should be .2 to 1.0.
Now for the questions;- What number should the meter be set 20,200 or 2000? I set mine at 200 & got readings of 1.2 (good or bad?)
Volts ... should be 60v @ 5000rpm. Mine shows about 3 but this I'm not understanding. 60V? I'd have thought it should show 13 or 14 volts. Because I don't get a reading does this mean the stator is stuffed?
Is there a stator test once I've got it out? I don't want to buy a new one & find the problem is something else.
I've not been there Snapey, can't help. I'd say the rectifier would reduce & correct that voltage to something the bike can use though. Think it starts out as AC & gets converted to DC.
Make sure you're using the AC range though, using DC range on AC circuits gives erroneous readings - so I've found out.
Snapey, i have an auto electrician mate, can ask on Monday if you want.
Slightly high Ohms could just be manky contacts increasing the resistance. The ranges on your meter just make it more accurate, provided it's not set below what you're trying to read it'll be close enough. If you get the same between all three wires I wouldn't worry about it it sounds close enough to me.
As Col says you need to test in AC before the reg/rec.
When my stator burnt out I didn't get a reading off one of the yellow wires, as it's a three phase generator & one phase had failed on mine. When I took it out it was obviously burnt. Enjoy getting the cover off/on as it snaps into place due to magnetism & can bite your fingers. Plus it'll probably pull the starter cog out & you need to rotate the engine slightly to get it back in place.
The manual lists how to test the reg/rec too. I'd start there as they are known to fail on a lot of bikes & being where it is (near the swing arm pivot) you can collect a lot of shite around the connectors so they rot.
Quote from: grog on Saturday, 19 May 2018, 05:23 PM
Snapey, i have an auto electrician mate, can ask on Monday if you want.
Thanks Grog I'm interested in what he says although Hooli covered it pretty well in the next post.
Good explanation Hooli but I'm still confused with the voltage reading from the generator although my knowledge of reading a multi meter is very limited.
Ah yes ... the generator cover ... been there, done that.
Reg/rec will be tested tomorrow.
The o/p from the generator is AC so 60v is correct but it has to be converted into DC for the bike to work correctly. Very basically the regulator/rectifier does this by chopping the voltage in half and inverting the bottom (-) half, then it clips the top off the 30v peaks and smooths it out to about 15v and then puts it into the battery circuit which is why a charging battery usually has about 14.5v on it. Hope this helps.
The manual tells me to do a diode test but the meter has to be reading 1.4. My el-cheapo Dick Smith special is showing 1. I'm getting readings between the terminals but they're in the hundreds instead of maybe 0.4 to 0.7. So do I buy a decent multi meter of go to an auto electrician?
The readings between the yellow wires of the generator all read 1.2 ohms & that's on AC. What does the symbol that looks like a laying down 8 & then the ohms symbol mean? Imagine the figure 8 tilted 90 degrees.
An '8' on it's side represents infinity. It's normally just a connectivity test setting rather than registering a reading. If that makes sense?
As to your readings, you might just be on the wrong scale. If you're reading Ohms & the manual is in hundreds of Ohms for example 100Ohms on a meter set to 100s would show as 1.0. Provided you know & 'translate' it then it doesn't matter.
I thought it was a lazy 8, too tired to stand up straight :rofl2: :lol: :happy1:
Didn't you have problems with the rectifier before!
Quote from: Irish in Oz on Sunday, 20 May 2018, 06:56 PM
Didn't you have problems with the rectifier before!
Sure did Jeff ... five years ago. Only $147.50 for a new one. It's a shame Mr Suzuki didn't put it in the same place as the Katana. If they couldn't do that why not put the bloody thing in a pocket inside the battery box similar to where the ECU is.
Can't hide them in the battery box as they get rather hot in use. Hence hondas are famous for them failing as they hid them inside the bodywork for a while.
If your in a hot country
or your reg/rec is getting hotter than you'd like top tip is to fit a 12v case fan from a computer to the cooling find on the reg/rec.
Wire it to a switched live and it'll keep everything nice and cool.
:cheers:
Quote from: Snapey on Sunday, 20 May 2018, 01:47 PM
The manual tells me to do a diode test but the meter has to be reading 1.4. My el-cheapo Dick Smith special is showing 1. I'm getting readings between the terminals but they're in the hundreds instead of maybe 0.4 to 0.7. So do I buy a decent multi meter of go to an auto electrician?
The readings between the yellow wires of the generator all read 1.2 ohms & that's on AC. What does the symbol that looks like a laying down 8 & then the ohms symbol mean? Imagine the figure 8 tilted 90 degrees.
Hello Snapey. To test a diode properly you can't use a meter on its resistance setting. That only works on conductors, i.e. something that follows Ohm's law.
Diodes are semiconductors. Connected up one way they don't pass any current at all, but if they are connected the other way they will pass a current - but only when there's a little bit of voltage to get the electrons moving. Typically this is 0.7V or thereabouts for a regular silicon diode, after which the voltage stays pretty much at 0.7V even as the current increases dramatically.
So you need to look on your meter for a setting that has a diode symbol, it's a triangle with a bar on one end. If your meter doesn't have that you can pick them up dirt cheap on Amazon or eBay these days.
I haven't looked it up in the manual but if it's specifying 1.4V then maybe that's 2 diodes in series, hence 2 lots of 0.7V.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: Mister Fishfinger on Monday, 21 May 2018, 07:33 AM
So you need to look on your meter for a setting that has a diode symbol, it's a triangle with a bar on one end. If your meter doesn't have that you can pick them up dirt cheap on Amazon or eBay these days.
I haven't looked it up in the manual but if it's specifying 1.4V then maybe that's 2 diodes in series, hence 2 lots of 0.7V.
Hope that helps.
My multimeter has the diode symbol but I'm hot getting a start reading of 1.4 so from what I understand there's no point continuing with the test. I'm going to an electronic shop today to see if they have meters that can do the job ... or tell me where I'm going wrong.
Just use ohms, you should get a reading one way and none when you reverse the polarity. It's very simple.
Quote from: Irish in Oz on Monday, 21 May 2018, 10:36 AM
Just use ohms, you should get a reading one way and none when you reverse the polarity. It's very simple.
Thank you Jeffrey, I'll try that tomorrow.
Quote from: Irish in Oz on Monday, 21 May 2018, 10:36 AM
Just use ohms, you should get a reading one way and none when you reverse the polarity. It's very simple.
Except if one of the diodes has gone short circuit you won't be able to tell. You'll still get the same result.
I guess that's why Suzuki tells you to put it on a diode tester and look for 1.4V.
A trip to Jaycar today resulted in me buying a decent multimeter. Tell me if I'm wrong, but all diodes tested were in tolerance, so does that mean the reg/rec is OK and I need to look at the stator. I'll put the bike back together and test the generator voltage with the new meter.
I'm beginning to hate this bike more every time I look at it. I'm presuming the regulator is OK because the diodes are within tolerance so is it the stator.
So I now have a new multimeter but two settings for ohms ... one has the ohms logo with an M above it & auto in the top LH corner. The other is the ohms logo on it's own but a sound logo at the top of the screen & an alarm goes off when I touch wires. I've been using the auto one but when do I take the reading? At first touch the meter reads 0000 but if I leave the probes connected for maybe 5 seconds I get a reading of .4 - .5 ohms which is in tolerance. When do I take the reading?
The 5000rpm voltage check should read 60 volts. It's reading 45 volts @5000rpm. Is the stator stuffed or am I bloody stupid?
This is all a bit out of my league Snapey, however, I've found a link to sorting stator / charging probs which may be of use.
http://www.vn750.com/forum/19-electrical/8555-goof-proof-stator-test.html
Best of luck with it, I'm off to read it completely.
Right, read through it completely, good general info there. Sounds like you have 1 phase going or gone bad. :onya:
Thanks for that Col. I can now do the voltage test knowing it's to be done in AC & on all 3 phases.
I still need to know when to take the ohms reading though ... when the probes first touch the wires or when the meter has stopped calculating?
Hmmm, I'd be going with when it stops calculating. When first contacted, maybe a bit of a 'surge' or something going on there, but after a while you get a 'constant' reading, that's the one I'd plump for.
On auto it takes a while for the meter to compute what to display, so you take the top reading. Resistance test passed, but it doesn't matter, as the no-load test failed. You should get more than 60 volts at 5000 rpm when engine is cold. 45 volts means your generator is stuffed.
Many thanks Andre. Not the answer I wanted to hear but you've explained it perfectly. Thanks for your input too Col ... looks like you were spot on with taking the second reading.
Snapey, maybe these blokes can help. i know nothing about them but not too far from you. https://dropbears.com/motorcycles/dealers/stator-rewinds.htm
Sounds like you now have an answer Pete. Hope you get it sorted mate.
New stator ordered ... here's hoping.
I now have a bike with a working generator although not without drama's. The cost of a new stator from a Suzuki dealer is $587 but an Electrex from Wemoto is $165. Needless to say that I didn't pay the dealer price especially when I wasn't certain that the stator was the problem.
Now for the drama mentioned earlier. The rubber seal where the wires come out of the cover is moulded around the wires but the new stator doesn't come with that part. It comes with the correct connecting plug but no provision for the rubber seal. I'm lucky that I've got the gear & experience to make a new rubber seal but if you don't then be warned that this after market stator doesn't have the part & you'll have to make something.
Photo's show the original seal and the one I made saving me about $400 in the process.
An a damn fine job you've made of it too Snapey! Top marks, now shout yourself a beer or 6 for saving that much dosh!
Great work Pete & what a saving :onya:
You made a damned good job of that seal Snapey :onya:
It's not available as a spare part, so either carefully stripping the original one off or making a new one is the only options available.
For future reference, how did you make it?
Nice work Snapey.
Just in case anyone is interested (feel free to skip this bit if you hate electrics), there is reason why the meter reading takes time to settle down when you are measuring the resistance of a generator winding.
It's basically because the wires in the generator aren't straight. They are wound into coils, which means that they have inductance. From a DC point of view there's no difference between that and a straight length of wire, but things are different when the current isn't steady.
When you first attach the meter it wants to go from "no current" to "some current" instantly - but inductors don't let you do that. They only allow the current to increase steadily from zero. That's why the meter takes a little time to settle, it is gradually building up current in the coil. The more turns of wire, the slower it will go.
Anyway, the point is - nothing to worry about, just wait till the reading is stable and you are good to go.
Great job Snapey. agree, how did you make it?
Nice outcome, good price too :onya:
Quote from: Mister Fishfinger on Wednesday, 30 May 2018, 06:43 PM
Anyway, the point is - nothing to worry about, just wait till the reading is stable and you are good to go.
I now understand that I need to wait for the meter to settle before I get a good reading so let me tell you what I observed when I had the old and new stator together.
The ohms readings on both stators were well within tolerances ... 0.2 to 1.0 but at 5000 rpm both were below 60 volts.
Readings between the wires and laminations on the old stator all came up at about 0.4 ohms whether + or - was earthed.
The same test on the new stator showed completely different results but I forget if I earthed the positive or negative. Let's say the negative probe was on the wire (any of the three) and the positive earthed on the laminations the ohms meter would flash different high readings. If the probes were reversed I'd get no reading at all.
If you can understand that please explain.
The rubber seal started the day as an off cut from a sheet of 1/2" die rubber. Bandsawn a linished to size then the mounting groove cut with a 1/4" grinding wheel so the whole thing fits the casing but just proud of the surface.
Now the tricky bit. The wires are 2.25mm diameter so that's the size drill I used for the three separate holes knowing they'll be bloody tight. I have a scriber that's 3.0mm diameter that's pushed through a hole in the rubber and also a piece of thin wall brass tube also 3.0mm diameter. By pushing the point of the scriber into the brass tube I can now get the tube through the hole. I can now push the wire in to the tube and when sliding the tube out of the hole I'm left with the wire in the rubber.
Repeat two more times.
Maybe a few pictures in the morning might help.
Its a good job you are into Rubber Snapey !!
:stir:
Quote from: Snapey on Wednesday, 30 May 2018, 09:57 PM
Quote from: Mister Fishfinger on Wednesday, 30 May 2018, 06:43 PM
Anyway, the point is - nothing to worry about, just wait till the reading is stable and you are good to go.
I now understand that I need to wait for the meter to settle before I get a good reading so let me tell you what I observed when I had the old and new stator together.
The ohms readings on both stators were well within tolerances ... 0.2 to 1.0 but at 5000 rpm both were below 60 volts.
Readings between the wires and laminations on the old stator all came up at about 0.4 ohms whether + or - was earthed.
The same test on the new stator showed completely different results but I forget if I earthed the positive or negative. Let's say the negative probe was on the wire (any of the three) and the positive earthed on the laminations the ohms meter would flash different high readings. If the probes were reversed I'd get no reading at all.
If you can understand that please explain.
To do a proper test you need one of these. The insulation on the windings are leaking to earth. It's like pressure testing a water pipe with a hydraulic pump.
I have this one with me, one in the workshop and my son borrowed the other one.
What I'm not understanding about this Jeff is the readings I get between the wires and the laminations. When I used to wind alternator stators one of the tests was to make sure a wire wasn't shorting out on the laminations. If it did it failed. I'm getting these readings on the good stator.
With your new multimeter and new stator there should be zero resistance between cable ends and laminations or earth (frame) when bolted in to bike.
The reason for a megger (insulation tester) is to pressure the insulation on the coil to make in leak to earth.
A ohm meter cannot do this, as I said above its like water in a pipe with a tiny pin hole and you can't find it but if you increase the water pressure you may then see the leak.
Anyway I've given away to many trade secrets now.
Quote from: Snapey on Thursday, 31 May 2018, 02:53 AM
What I'm not understanding about this Jeff is the readings I get between the wires and the laminations. When I used to wind alternator stators one of the tests was to make sure a wire wasn't shorting out on the laminations. If it did it failed. I'm getting these readings on the good stator.
As a matter of interest who where you doing the alternator stators for!
I remember working on some bigger than this.
Quote from: Irish in Oz on Thursday, 31 May 2018, 03:17 AM
As a matter of interest who where you doing the alternator stators for!
Email Jeff. I was looking after the Possis winding machines doing alternators for Ford, Chrysler & BMC. That was 50 years ago but I remember having trouble with some bad insulation material allowing the windings to short out on the laminations.
Did they not have colour photographs when you were working Irish ?? :stir:
Quote from: Kiwifruit on Thursday, 31 May 2018, 08:37 AM
Did they not have colour photographs when you were working Irish ?? :stir:
I worked in that same workshop in the late seventies that picture is obviously earlier than that, when I was there they had painted it green .
[/quote]
Email Jeff. I was looking after the Possis winding machines doing alternators for Ford, Chrysler & BMC. That was 50 years ago but I remember having trouble with some bad insulation material allowing the windings to short out on the laminations.
[/quote]
Email Westinghouse.
Usually caused by the winding getting damaged when being put into the slot. I usually test at a minimum of 1000V, in the old days it was done over a period of 1 minute called drop testing.
The insulation resistance should be over 1 Meg Ohms but on saying that I personally want to see 100 Meg Ohms plus or Infinity your 8 symbol on its side.
Ah yes ... the 1000 volt test. Low amps but we all got hit by it at some stage. It rattled the fillings.
Snapey my test meters are battery powered these day's but even when I was an apprentice we still had the old wind up versions.