GSX1400 Owners .org

So, EU madness is coming to my home...  :furious:

Since 1st of May, all our petrol stations are obligated to stop selling of 95 petrol, and start selling 95E5 (5% of ethanol) and since 1st of April 2019 95E10 (10% of ethanol).
98 will remain ethanol free, so far.

Ethanol is bad for aluminium, what our bike engine have a lot, so I think I do not have any other option beside to start using 98 petrol. But isn't 98 to much for our bikes?  :confused1:
What do you think?

Nope 98 RON is not, ran my 1400 on it in the UK in preference to using 95RON and it ran a whole lot better. Whether it was down to the additives that are in the 98RON fuel in the UK (over and above those in 95RON) I don't know, but mine did run better and ran a lot cleaner. (By 98 I was using either BP Ultimate or Shell Optimax)

When I was doing the Wild Atlantic Way in Ireland last year, most fule had between 5-10% Ethanol in it, 5% was OK-ish, slightly flat performance, 10% definitely ran a bit hotter and flatter. Was so glad to get back to using 98 again.

So Northern, this could be a good thing using 98!!!!

But the bike only needs 91

91 for me most of the time. Put a tankful of 98 in now and again. Think its got injector cleaner in it.

95 for me. If not available then 98.
Mines an ethanol free bike  ;)

91 as long as ethanol free, getting harder to find. 95 or 98 otherwise. Runs exact same on all of them. Over 20 cents / litre dearer for 95.

In simple terms (please note I said simple): The octane rating is a measurement of the fuel's resistance to detonation. So when comparing like for like fuels the higher the octane rating, the higher it can be compressed (bigger bang) before you experience engine knock / pinging / whatever you call it in your part of the world (uncontrolled bang). This is why high performance engines, with high compression ratios, require high octane fuel.

Higher Performance = Higher Octane

Higher Octane ≠ Higher Performance

Unless your compression ratio requires it you won't make any more power by using a higher octane fuel than required.

The fuel additives are where the argument really begins. Engine cleaners, friction reducers, corrosion inhibitors, improved fuel economy and on it goes. As to whether it they are genuinely useful or it's just magical fairy dust sprinkled in, who knows? Well the fuel companies do but we hear from the marketing department not the scientists. Most of our evidence is anecdotal - a mate said it went good, the internet said it was better, you accidentally put a tank full in once a while back. Conditions are so varied it's hard to tell anything other than a major change anyway. I'm not saying they don't work, but it's certainly something you need to research / experiment with yourself.

For the ethanol mixes I'd be worried about my fuel lines, a quick google search will yield countless stories of fuel systems not designed for it being eaten away.

With the GSX1400 it's not a high compression engine and if keeping your fuel filters clean (as per other threads on the forum) I don't see the need for regular "cleaning" of the engine / fuel system,
so I run the standard 91 petrol we get down here.

As always happy to be proven wrong.

I use 98E5, pure 98 or 99 is not sold here. And my 14 needs those ocktanes :whistling:

Ethanol-free 98 RON, as the only ethanol-free petrol here comes in 98 (Total's Excellium) or 102 RON (Aral's Ultimate). Lowest RON available here is 95, exclusively E5 or E10.

Somewhat objectively I can say that the 14 burns the 98 (Total Excellium) cleanly. Emission test showed 0.37 (whatever) carbon monoxide. Compared to 1.2 (lowest) on previous tests (PO). The fail limit is 4.5. Low values may also be due to: New spark plugs, air filter, throttle sync, TPS/STPS adjustments. Fuel consumption is 5.1 to 5.4 liter/100km in season.

Shell's V-Power with 100+ RON is an interesting one. Surprises people when they find out it contains ethanol. There is even more to it - V-Power is the secret alcoholic in the family. And it's the most expensive of the lot.

Found this here http://kaeferteam-nuernberg.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Shell-V-Power-RacingTDS.pdf (http://kaeferteam-nuernberg.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Shell-V-Power-RacingTDS.pdf). It is from 2009 though (definitely still up to 5% ethanol today). These are max values.

Methanol %(V/V) 3,0
Ethanol %(V/V) 5,0
Iso-propyl-alcohol (IPA) %(V/V) 10,0
Iso-butyl-alcohol (IBA) %(V/V) 10,0
Tert-butyl-alcohol (TBA) %(V/V) 7,0
Ether (5 or more C-Atome) %(V/V) 15,0
Other oxygen containing chemicals %(V/V) 10,0

Funny: They don't list the amount of petrol :rofl2:

Quote from: northern on Thursday, 26 April  2018, 06:49 AM
But isn't 98 to much for our bikes?  :confused1:
What do you think?

98 is not to much, but it is not needed for the standard 14 engine. Gives you some good leeway for advancing the ignition and increasing the compression though.

I have also tried our RE 85, what contents 85% of ethanol and 15% of petrol. It has higher octanes, 120-130 I think, and its good with higher boosts, but it needs totally different adjustments, much richer, but I'm not satisfied with it and I don't use it any more. Funny thing with RE 85 is that even it is mostly ethanol , it collects free water to the bottom of the tank ( and carbs, if you have them).
Also I use Russian Lukoil's Ekto Sport gasoline, every time I can get it, which is pure 99 octane petrol without ethanol. It gives smoother AFR curves than our 98E5.
Problem with Ekto Sport is that it's not sold here.

Quote from: T 24 on Thursday, 26 April  2018, 02:22 PM
Funny thing with RE 85 is that even it is mostly ethanol , it collects free water to the bottom of the tank ( and carbs, if you have them).

The water problem is one of the reasons why I don't like any ethanol in the petrol.

Ethanol in water, also known as beer, I do like :cheers:

Well well, you guys on the top half really have some mixes of fuel don't ya!   Our 91 (for the time being anyway) is unmolested pure petrol.  We don't have E5 or E10 (5% & 10% blends) in NZ, that I'm aware of & certainly not as an option at the pump.

I've done the comparisons with 91, 95 & 98.  There is (from my perception) no noticeable increase in power or economy using the higher octanes.  Best fuel economy modifier is your right hand on the throttle.

If or when we end up with Ethanol in our gas, I'll look to change up to one without it.   Now having said that, how hard would it be (what's involved) in adapting our fuel system to cope with it?   

Just a bit more info,  from the handbook, 3-2,  Says gasoline & ethanol (also known as Gasohol) may be used in the vehicle if the ethanol content is not greater than 10%   and Methanol blends containing 5% or less may be suitable if they contain co-solvents & corrosion inhibitors.  (whatever they are?)

@KiwiCol , No modifications is needed if you have to use 5% or 10% ethanol blends.
And there is no water problem with mild blends.

Quote from: KiwiCol on Thursday, 26 April  2018, 08:17 AM
But the bike only needs 91

91 is not avalible here. 95 is minimum.

Quote from: northern on Thursday, 26 April  2018, 04:45 PM

Quote from: KiwiCol on Thursday, 26 April  2018, 08:17 AM
But the bike only needs 91

91 is not avalible here. 95 is minimum.

There is no harm if you use too high octanes, you only lose some money. But if you use too low octanes you can break your engine!

Thank you for your thoughts.
In general, I was thinking the same, but it's good to have it written, for those who will have same questions.  :onya:

another question:
Does someone have personal experience with ethanol blend consequences for fuel system?

Am pretty sure Methanol absorbs water Col. Might be why they mention corrosion inhibitors.

98, not really needed for the GSX1400 but I fuel the K1600 with it as well and I've never had trouble.

@northern , I have used many years (10 years??) those 5% and 10% blends (we can't buy anything else) in cars, boats and motorcycles, and I haven't noticed any harms of that small % of ethanol, even in two strokers..
I have heard that some rubbers won't work with ethanol, but I haven't found them..
That ethanol discussion is mostly mass hysteria. (IMO)

What a great thread guys, I just pull up and whack it in (see Mrs Red) so this stuff is great. I'll pay more attention at the pump next time  :cheers:

For winter storage i try and get a full tank with 98 in it.
During normal driving it's euro95 but from the bigger brands.

i try and keep away from those small fuel stations who also cater agricultural machine and boats.

Suzuki Australia warns in its FAQ against use any ethanol blends in their bikes. They link to url]https://www.fcai.com.au/environment/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol[/url] where it says that all Suzuki bikes are suitable to run on E5 and E10. ??? (Not true btw)

Same link states that ALL Yamaha and Hondas are not suited for E5/10 (Also not true). Kawasaki also not suited except for those on a short list.

According to Suzuki Germany https://motorrad.suzuki.de/service/faq/technik/suzuki-motorraeder-und-e10-kraftstoff (https://motorrad.suzuki.de/service/faq/technik/suzuki-motorraeder-und-e10-kraftstoff)

All bikes model year 2002 and up are ok with E10.
All bikes model year 1991 and previous are not suitable for E10.

For 1991-2001 see list in linked document. Those not listed should not be standing for more than one month. Carburated models, despite approval, can cause rough running engines. If you experience this you should discontinue E10.

A long running German bike journal, in an article overall positive towards ethanol blends, explains the water problem with ethanol:

"E10 binds about one percent of water at 20 ° C until segregation, at 0 ° C only 0.5 percent. If there is more water in the tank, it separates with the ethanol from the gasoline (phase separation) and forms a highly corrosive water-alcohol mixed phase at the bottom of the tank. In the above, now ethanol-free, petrol drops the knock resistance, which carries the risk of serious engine damage. These effects can significantly reduced when the tank is full."

It depends on the circumstances then. If the ethanol has bound more than 50% water at 20° and temperature drops to 0° phase separation will occur.

The bike journal also states:

"In carburetor engines or fuel injection without lambda probe, in extreme cases with E10 the mixture can lean too much. In order to avoid heat damage, one would have to re-jet or adjust ecu."

Even at the price of being perceived as hysteric, I stay away from ethanol blends if at all possible. My 14 runs just fine on premium 98 ethanol free :cheers:

@Andre  You are correct. Dont use that ethanol blended stuff if you can buy real petrol. There is nothing good with that ethanol scrab.
That's "EU nonsense" for that "climate religion".
We poor bastards here near north pole use those ethanol blended fuels because we cant buy pure ethanol free petrol.
But, when I had used that E5 and E 10 few years I notised that it wasn't so bad I believed. Nothing had changed. :)

To be honest, I have used E5 (1st K2) and E10 (cars) in past vehicles WITHOUT noticing problems. E10 did reduce my gas milage, offsetting the pennies saved. All my previous vehicles were used very frequently all throughout the year. That is different now. Only ride when temp is above 15° unless it's itching severly :rofl2:

Use of E10 is approved for the 14, but it was certainly not designed for it. Additives might be added to fuel (more so by the bigger brands) to counteract some of the negatives of ethanol blends. I don't want these as long as I don't need them.

And yes, it is a "climate religion" with huge lobbies behind it! Remember the diesel. Man, was it pushed here in Germany as environmental "friendly". Having lived in California in the 80's I wondered why there were no diesel cars and pick-ups. Well, they were aware of the NOX issue even then. German companies pushed their diesel over there using deception. Now they are paying billions over there in restitutions and fines. No end in sight. Guess what German diesel owners get - ineffective software updates and warm words (buy our new clean diesels!).

Our citizens pay huge sums to establish "regenerative" energy while large firms are excluded from paying their share.

Interesting stuff, especially about the impact of water.

My 30 year old Z1300 tank pin-holed and then started to severely rot, the guy who works on it for me said that it was probably due to water sitting in the bottom of the tank whilst the lighter fuel floated to the top during its winder lay-ups over the course of three decades.

If Ethanol creates a bigger problem it may be worth making the effort to completely drain down the tank if you are not going to use the bike for a couple of months.

Generally I alternate between standard and premium grade fuels in my bikes for no other reason than that I was confused as to what is best for them. I can't really see any great performance differences although the moody Z13 (carb model) does seem a bit easier to start up if it has the premium fuel in the tank. A squirt of carb cleaner into the air filter housing is also usually required if it has had several weeks off.

Draining the tank is a good idea when not using the bike. Add draining the carbs as well. Dutch guy with a Z1100 (what a great looking bike) told me that his carbs were clogged up with "gel-type" stuff. His mechanic said that came from ethanol.

There is also the thought that acetic acid develops chemically in ethanol blends which attacks the metals in the fuel system. Some additive producer claims that this is enhanced through microorganisms especially when riding as the fuel gets sloshed around and oxygen gets mixed in.

As of 2011 only Kawasakis build from 2006 onward are E10 approved.

By and by more vehicles are approved for ethanol. I'd go by that if I were to buy a new bike and keep it just a few years. But all these approvals mean little to me. No one has done testing over the time span I plan to ride my 14 (including the 15 years done by PO). If I had no choice I'd look into additives major fuel brands put into their ethanol blends and select accordingly. Maybe add some extra additive. Don't need to yet, may never do as synthetic petrol might make an appearance on the market in the future.

Quote from: Andre on Friday, 27 April  2018, 07:10 AM
Draining the tank is a good idea when not using the bike. Add draining the carbs as well. Dutch guy with a Z1100 (what a great looking bike) told me that his carbs were clogged up with "gel-type" stuff. His mechanic said that came from ethanol.

Unfortunately nothing is so simple. Draining the tank is OK when not using the bike, if you keep the bike in warm garage etc.
If you store the bike in shed, where temperatures are going up and down, it can be better to fill up the tank and use good petrol stabilizer to avoid condensation of moisture and rust (like we do with boats in winter). Of course it depends on storage time.
And yes, draining carbs is the best solution against that gel-type scum, and fuel stabilizer is the second best (not so good) :stir:

What we need in instances like this is a non corroding fuel tank.  Plastic or carbon fibre maybe?  Even a coating on the inside of the tank perhaps?

i use and sell this stuff. best ive come across. have seen demos on how good compared to other products even 95&98 fuel. there is no proof that 95/98 even have cleaners in them. hard to prove or dis prove according to wynns. it just disintergrates build up, keeps fuel stable. can be then stored for winter lay off. each 300ml bottle removes its own volume of water. a great product. each bottle will do 3 or 4 tanks on 14. my tank is spotless inside. snake oil from me, no, i reckon its just the best. http://www.wynns.net/product/i/complete-fuel-system-cleaner-petrol

I have two bikes with plastic fuel tanks and both have been affected by the ethanol in petrol.  About 3 years ago I wrote to all the petrol companies in the UK and asked what percentage of ethanol they used, all apart from ESSO claimed at least 5% ethanol in all fuels, including super unleaded.  ESSO said that the regular petrol had 5% but the super has 0% and this will be the case for some time to come.  I confirmed this with ESSO last year and it's still the case.  If petrol stations ae now telling everyone I would suggest it's because they are all going up yo 10% ethanol.  With the exception of the bikes with plastic tanks I use 95 octane in my other bikes.

What does it do to the plastic tank Mick? 

Quote from: KiwiCol on Saturday, 28 April  2018, 12:43 AM
What does it do to the plastic tank Mick?

Col

It makes them expand, on my Speed Triple it stretched out wide enough to split the water pump cover, I had to repair the split and then elongate the hole to allow it to refit onto the tank.  On my MZ it expanded lengthwise so that I have to unbolt the tank from both ends rather than just the front and pivot it upwards, it wont clear the handlebars now.  Switching to ESSO super has stopped them from getting any worse.  Ducati had a similar problem and replaced all it's plastic tanks for steel ones a few years ago but Triumph are not interested in it as "it's not a problem we have encountered" as for MZ, they have gone bust so no help is forthcoming from them.

What did Triumph say about your tank?  Surely they've encountered it when you show them yours?  They just pretend it's not happening then?  Are they trying to say it's your fault or something you did to make the tank go like that?

Triumph just said there is no evidence that ethanol in petrol affects their tanks and they could supply me with a new one at over £650.  They have stopped making bikes with plastic tanks, as have Ducati (and they admitted it did affect their tanks).  Triumph said they have run tests and it does not affect their tanks but loads of people on the S3 forum say that's shite as it plainly does, and why would other manufacturers fes up if it had no effect.  It only happens to tanks made by Accerbis who used to make all the plastic tanks used on European bikes until ethanol was routinely used.  My BMW has a plastic tank and is fine but is new and not made by Accerbis.

That's pretty crap service from Triumph then.  Sorta puts ya off the brand a bit really.

Quote from: KiwiCol on Saturday, 28 April  2018, 03:08 AM
That's pretty crap service from Triumph then.  Sorta puts ya off the brand a bit really.

Sssshhhhh........ don't tell Barmy  :cool:

Ethanol (aka corn juice) is a cheap way to increase octane rating but has less energy content than straight hydrocarbons, i.e. not alcohols. So you will burn more ethanol blend than non ethanol fuel for the same energy output and get worse economy. This is very pronounced with E85 which is very popular with the ricers and their turbo 4's here in Aus because it allows them to wind up the boost much higher than is possible with 98RON.

I am not across the changes to fuel systems that have been developed to "safely" use ethanol but I'd rather not put ethanol in "older" vehicles because of the potential for damage to rubbers, plastics etc.

The main problem with ethanol is acid production because acid causes corrosion. Ethanol is hygroscopic (absorbs water) and this mixture creates favourable conditions for acetobacter growth. Acetobacter oxidises the ethanol to acetic acid (vinegar smell).

If you can keep water out of your tank and are using the bike regularly, E5 or E10 shouldn't be a problem corrosion wise, but there still remains the issue of rubbers and plastics.

If you are storing your bike I think it's a really bad idea to leave an ethanol blend in the tank.

FWIW I am planning to use 91 with no ethanol with the occasional tank of 98 because of the (marketing dept) reported cleaning properties. But then again injector cleaner additive every few tanks probably does the same job... If you are concerned about pinging/detonation you can load up the engine in too high a gear to see if you can induce it. I've been unable to with 91.

I was actually shocked at the low octane ratings of fuels in the USA. From memory that had 81, 85 and 89RON? I struggled to find even 91 and wondered what people with modern turbo cars that spec 95RON or higher do over there...

Been running on 98 for a couple of years now - no problems. especially laying up in winter as the stuff stays fresh as a daisy all winter... :smitten:

USA uses MON instead of RON which is about 8-12 octane lower. The 89 MON is about the same as 98 RON :)

Just found out that there is another problem with ethanol: it has another stoichiometric AFR than pure petrol. E10 (only the one that really contains 10% ethanol) is 14.04:1 while pure petrol is 14.7:1 (sorry, don't have the E5 number and to lazy to figure it out). Pure ethanol is 9:1 btw.

You can't be sure how much ethanol is in the ethanol/petrol blends. If you have a lambda sensor, the ECU makes the adjustments automatically (to a certain degree). We don't have these on the 14 (exception PC with Autotune). The only way to be sure that your AFR is were it should be is to use pure petrol.

Quote from: Basil Brush on Sunday, 07 April  2019, 09:10 PM
Been running on 98 for a couple of years now - no problems. especially laying up in winter as the stuff stays fresh as a daisy all winter... :smitten:

Probably the best option. All you have to lose is the difference in cost. 98RON where I am is quite a bit more expensive than 91. Around 20c/litre I think so if neither have ethanol and you don't need the knock control then there really is no point paying the extra for 98 aside from the speculative cleaning properties. Speculative because there does not seem to be any factual evidence rather than marketing gumph available to support these cleaning properties. :shrug:

Quote from: Andre on Sunday, 07 April  2019, 09:26 PM
USA uses MON instead of RON which is about 8-12 octane lower. The 89 MON is about the same as 98 RON :)

Just found out that there is another problem with ethanol: it has another stoichiometric AFR than pure petrol. E10 (only the one that really contains 10% ethanol) is 14.04:1 while pure petrol is 14.7:1 (sorry, don't have the E5 number and to lazy to figure it out).

You can't be sure how much ethanol is in the ethanol/petrol blends. If you have a lambda sensor, the ECU makes the adjustments automatically. We don't have these on the 14 (exception PC with Autotune). The only way to be sure that your AFR is were it should be is to use pure petrol.

Ah, thanks for the RON/MON distinction - didn't know that.

I doubt E5 or E10 would significantly impact the AFR but def another reason to stay away from ethanol blends. The turbo kiddies I mentioned use a "flex fuel" sensor to detect the % of ethanol and feed that into the ECU. Obviously E85 would have a significant effect on AFR if not compensated for.

I'm no expert ...

I spent alot of time driving for work and tried all types of brands and RON levels (had that great fuel card and work car). Some days one brand and its RON 91-95-98 worked well, with the car smooth and responsive and quite. Other days not so smooth etc. Maybe the gods, maybe the planets aren't aligned.

The 1400 I must say is happiest with Mobile Special Unleaded - 91. I tried their 95 but the Special works a treat, good economy. It just feels good riding, responsive, accelerating, you know. Tried Caltex and BP but still go back to Mobil (not a fan of Shell).

Anyway .... just my input.

The 14 is adjusted from factory for RON 91. Unless you made certain changes to the engine, higher octane isn't needed.