Hi all, I find my engine with the following signs:
1) The pressure of cylinder no.2 (approx 70psi) is significantly lower then the other 3 cylinders (approx 175psi). As learn from internet, I tried to pour a spoon of engine oil in the cylinder, it came up slightly around 80psi. So I guess it was mainly not the piston ring worn out, more likely is leakage from the intake or exhaust valves ?
2) (Occasionally) When start up the engine or more common is when the engine heat up, some white smoke came out from the exhaust muffler when I close the throttle. When turn on the throttle, there is no smoke. I guess this is cause by some leak valve stem oil seal ?
If these guessing are correct, I am planning to remove the cylinder head to change the valve stem oil seal and also do some cleaning as well.
Also is it possible to clean the carbon deposit on the pistons without removing the cylinder block ? (I am afraid the dirty deposits/cleaning liquid will run into the cylinder block)
Welcome for all suggestions and comments :) !
Hi, sorry to read about your engine issues. It's not something we get as a rule. I'd be surprised if your issues were caused by just a stem seal leak / broken, as that's a big drop in pressure Sounds more like a burnt valve or blown head gasket.
Once you get the head off, you can clean anything on that without a care, for piston tops, I wouldn't think there'll be too much to worry about, but if you did want to clean them, maybe use a dremell with a 'straight' wire brush & a vacuum cleaner nozzle inside each cyl as you do it.
I'd be checking for head gasket leak myself. The chances of 1 cyl burning out a valve or having 1 cyl with a naf stem seal would be pretty remote, unless the engine has been 'tinkered' with by PO's in the past & not been assembled correctly or left something in there that has blocked the oil gallery.
Lawrie Sweaty Hoolie etc would be able to help
This isn't the first time you had some engine problems. What did you find with the oil-filled PAIR system?
Lawrie Sweaty Hoolie etc would be able to help
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Col, I hope you miss typed my name, otherwise, you have me mistaken. I'm the last person you want mechanical advise from :) I know nothing.
I'm only good for the basic easy stuff & smart arse comments etc :cheers:
Yep, sorry bro, should be Snapey.
Rollerfish, 75 psi is not good. The oil trick proved not a ring prob. Can only be valves, head gskt or cracked head. Valve clearance ok? Next step is a cylinder leakage test. Put no. 2 on tdc, put bike in gear to stop piston moving. Need a spark plug adapter to connect compressed air. Then just listen to find where its leaking out. Airbox is inlet valve, exhaust is exhaust valve. Anywhere else is not good. Will answer question where prob is.
Quote from: KiwiCol on Sunday, 14 January 2018, 10:16 AM
Yep, sorry bro, should be Snapey.
Now that makes sense, he knows a couple of things that I don't about the 14 :rofl2:
Thanks all replies to my questions ! :hat:
@Andre , I think when I bought the bike (2nd hand) some problems already there (just as KiwiCol said 'unless...'). It just take time for me to discover ... :stir:. PAIR system spare parts are ready but I want to fix it with the oil seal and valve problems at once. So still waiting more parts, tools and holidays to open the cylinder head.
@KiwiCol , "Once you get the head off, you can clean anything on that without a care" that makes me feel more easy and confidence to do that ! :onya:
@grog , Big Thanks for your analysis and checking procedures suggestion ! :salute: :salute: (What is the meaning of "cracked head" ? cylinder head/ piston ?)
Actually if can confine the problems as you said, I'm thinking to prepare all the necessary spare parts and open the cylinder to find out what's the problems then fix it.
Although some "little problems" appear, the GSX14 is still very capable for everyday commuting for me ! :boogie2:
the photos took several months ago:
Looks like the valve seat is buggered in those pics. I'll leave it to the experts on here though.
Superb tip by
@grog :notworthy: Would definitely do that first!
By chance that weak compression cylinder number 3 or 4 (where you have the PAIR problem)? Can't think of any reason but a gut feeling is there that this might be related. Name of the pics do suggest though that cylinder number 2 has the problem.
Nice pics. Not qualified to judge but doesn't look right to me as the 2 exhaust valves look very different. Would love to have an endoscope just for kicks. Maybe I find a herd of elephants in there. Wouldn't be surprised :boogie:
If judge by cylinder pressure, only cylinder No. 2 has problem, others are fine. The PAIR at the cylinder 3 & 4 now have little carbon deposit, no oil flooding yet :)
No oil yet is great. Maybe PO just dumped some oil in there by accident. Who knows :whatever:
Carbon deposit there is normal.
these cylinders have normal pressure reading, but I definitely want to clean them... :twisted: :twisted:
Good to see what the good ones look like. Looks to me like cylinder 2 received a much leaner air/fuel mix. If so then that may be the cause of the problem. I would check for that, might be the injector #2.
Check out this thread http://gsx1400owners.org/forum_test/index.php?topic=95.0 (http://gsx1400owners.org/forum_test/index.php?topic=95.0) for a company that inspects and cleans injectors well and for a great price.
Check the connectors and wiring for the injector(s). Maybe a wire is broken or the connecting contacts are corroded.
amazing photos mate. never tried, how do you do them. camera down the plug hole im guessing. only way possible. hard to tell if its just the light but certainly look to me like its been running lean. head off and fix valves, then need to get it setting correct air/fuel ratio. injector clean is a good thing. necessary. even after that , maybe a power commander and dyno set. dont want it to happen again. as to how its been that lean, not sure. to my way of thinking, to be that lean it shouldve showed up in general engine performance. most modern day valves can take a flogging and still work. either had its arse flogged with bad fuel, open exhaust, lean mixture or just no fuel getting there, blocked injectors or filters. would surely have ran badly. bit of a mystery.
Grog, these kind of pics are usually done with a camera attached to an endoscope. That's a fiber-optic tube of the type they use to look into your stomach or other places and take pics through them. They are also available for automotive (etc.) stuff.
Looks like only the damaged cylinder was running lean. All others look like they were getting a rich mix.
I am not surprised that he was still using it. When my 3rd cylinder didn't run (spark plug failure) I didn't even notice while riding. Ok I was pooped (running my self only on one cylinder lol) and noticed not until I got in the driveway and took the helmet off that engine sounded different. Held my hands in front of the two cans and felt that the exhaust stream was weaker on the right can.
@rollerfish01 Before sending the injectors in you can test if they are clogged yourself. Lots of videos on youtube about this. Also see the workshop manual 4-46 for electrical testing of injector. But sending them to the company (see link in previous post - thank you Seth) is the best way and costs only around 60 quid for all 4! Besides initial and final testing, cleaning, they usually replace micro filters, o-rings, spacers and caps. They will get them just about as right (no matching and no new replacements) as new.
Replacement injectors are expensive (who would have thought). There are inexpensive chinese replicas. T24 has them and reports that they are alright but deliver a bit too much fuel. Adjusting fuel pressure (T24 has an external regulator on his) takes care of that.
For what a new original injector costs I have seen a lot of decent used throttle bodies that come with the injectors as well as TPS and STPS. The last 2 items do wear - slowly but they do.
At the very beginning when I first notice the "problem", it was cylinder no.2 sometimes not firing, gasoline smell came out from the muffler. I changed spark plugs, ignition coil & new battery, it will fire every time. But when checking the exhaust head pipe (at idling) with an infrared temp device, it was always 60-70 degree celsius lower than the other 3 cylinder's head pipe. (I wish I had check this before buying the bike :mwink:), so the problem hunting started.
@Andre very much agree with you about to check the injectors & TB first. Actually I did all as you said. I tested all the injectors & cleaned with throttle cleaner (as you said learned from youtube), injectors were all fine also the electrical test ok. I also tried to swap the injectors between different cylinders, do TB balance, the problem remains. Then by chance I bought a very good condition 2nd hand TB (with all parts and good wiring/ connectors), tested then replaced the original one, problem remains. So I guess can eliminate the factors caused by injectors/ TB/ TPS. STPS. And maybe this is pointing to next step...the valves/pistons/camshaft/cylinder head...
@grog About the photos. Surprise! you can take the photos easily with your smart phone ! just need to take off the exhaust head pipe (better take off the oil cooler too), put the smart phone camera near to the exhaust side and shoot. I found using video mode with fill in light on is better, just record steadily for a while and change different angles. Then you can play back and capture the screen, save as a photo; also can do that on PC. Yes, I think the further checking steps may go as you say. Its good to hear more opinions and suggestions from all of you ! (Also all the resources here is a great help :onya: :onya:)
duplicated :facepalm:
About the endoscope, I do have a cheap usb one and took some pistons photos, however it's resolution is not high and a bit difficult to control the direction .
Well... cough... the last pic of #2 looks like the other three in Reply #12. And fits the pic of the #2 piston as well.
Wow, you put already a bunch of work into this.
On to grog's checks :onya:
bought a spare cylinder head and finally got time to clean it, fit new oil seals and do valve lapping :lol:
then take the old cylinder head out of the bike and ....almost cannot trust my eye :shocked: :shocked:
at the cylinder 2 a Ex valve was broken :facepalm:
Anyway forget the old one and do cleansing to the pitsions and put the spare one on :onya:
although the old valves and pistions were full of carbon, the pistion wall are as new (the bike 78k km on clock).
After putting everything back, I am very exciting and afraid of anything will go wrong...
Luckily the engine just start up perfectly, the moment was so touching :boogie:
And I think the engine problem of the bike was resolved.
The power of the 14 and the sound of Yoshimura just returned. :salute: :salute:
Excellent work & pic's Rollerfish01. Determination won through in the end. Well done mate. :onya: :onya: :onya:
Wow. Nice work Rollerfish01!
Glad you sorted everything. Just makes me wonder what could cause the valve to break.
Enjoy your ride :onya:
Congrats Rollerfish, big relief when everything works for sure.
Valve play or carbon buildup on valve seat most likely. Lean condition could do this also but combustion chamber doesn't look lean.
Well done Roller, great work. Make sure you get air/ fuel mixture checked. That valve was burnt by being lean, nothing else. Yoshi Can did i see mentioned? Top job mate.
Dear mates, Thanks for all the comments ! :salute: :salute:
As the cylinder head is healthy now, today ordered a PCV to see how much improvment it can bring :cheers:
P.S. It seems the oil pipe inside the cylinder head is different from 2002 to 2007, the 2002 had a bigger hole.