GSX1400 Owners .org

Technically Speaking => Electrics => Topic started by: VladTepes on Wednesday, 01 February 2017, 03:51 PM

Title: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: VladTepes on Wednesday, 01 February 2017, 03:51 PM
NOTE: This thread is also available to download as a PDF file from the Downloads (General) Section

WARNING: If you have a GiPRO with aTRE fitted to your machine, then you will need to disable the aTRE function before doing this modification otherwise you double the advance of your ignition (set the GiPRO unit to NORMAL mode - this disables the aTRE. You need then to "teach" the GiPRO to recognise your gears (so the gear display still works) by setting the GiPRO unit up in "L" mode". If you do not have or have lost your GiPRO manual a copy can be located in Downloads / Manuals -> GiPRO User Guide)

Step 1: First remove this cover:

(https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/0/9-250117215132.jpeg)

Step 2: This is what's behind it:

(https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/0/9-250117215328.jpeg)

Step 3: Undo the centre bolt in the rotor and then remove rotor, undo the 3 remaining screws, 2 hold the magnet on

(https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/0/9-250117215418.jpeg)

Step 4: Once undone you are left with the base, undo the 3 screws that hold it in place

(https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/0/9-250117215458.jpeg)

Step 5: Take plate out and put in vice to file holes, holes are to be done clockwise:

(https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/0/9-250117215545.jpeg)

Step 6: Once happy with the filing job take back to the bike to see if you have done enough, I marked the standard position first (on the top of the plate) then another with the advance. With my bike the backing plate would only go about 3.75mm as it then hits on the bottom. 3.75mm is far enough for me as 1mm equals 1 degree when measured at the top of the plate, not on the filed holes. Check out the last photo for details

(https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/0/9-250117215647.jpeg)

Step 7: Put the backing plate screws back in and tighten, next put the magnet and the other wire back on, BIG TIP make sure the magnet goes in the right way, I put it in upside down the first time and when I started the bike it ran like a piece of shit, needless to say I was pretty concerned at what I had done wrong. Through a process of elimination I found what I had done and fixed it and then it ran good.

(https://gsx1400owners.org/forum/gallery/0/9-250117215750.jpeg)

Step 8: Put the cover back on, best to use a new gasket, but in my case after removing the cover again to find out what I had done wrong I used some Loctite gasket goo on it and it looks to be sealed.



Thanks to gsxbarmy for saving and collating this information.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Mrg on Wednesday, 01 February 2017, 07:04 PM
hi mik

not trying to sound thick here but what does this do for the bike .... :confused1:   this is not my area that is all

thank you   :onya:
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: VladTepes on Wednesday, 01 February 2017, 10:56 PM
Dave?

I found this elsewhere - sounds likely....

QuoteAdvancing timing basically means that your spark plug will fire earlier before TDC. What this essentially means is that it allows combustion to happen a little earlier BTDC than normal. This will give the combustion more time create the pressure from the explosion so when its going down on the power stroke, it tends to 'hit' harder. This will be more noticeable in lower to mid rpm ranges. However; it will hurt high rpm. This is mainly since the pistons are traveling faster they don't need that extra time to create the combustion pressure. Too advanced timing will cause pinging and pumping loses high up the powerband. Retarded timing will do the opposite, helping more on higher rpm and less on lower. Of coarse as far as performance goes, its always best to have the timing as far advanced as possible, but not to the point where it starts to ping (and thats when you know its too far).

If you don't understand it, don't do it.


In effect it's a mechanical (and much cheaper) way to accomplish one of the things you can do electronically with a Power Commander or ECU re-map.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Blubber on Thursday, 02 February 2017, 03:02 AM
Did this 2 weeks ago, dead easy with these instructions.  :onya:
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Mrg on Thursday, 02 February 2017, 03:45 AM
yes mik

I follow what you said and this is something I will have  a go at  :onya:
it was something I wont to understand a bit more   thank you
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: froudy on Monday, 06 February 2017, 08:54 PM
I did this mod...Easy enough to do following the instructions.

I then fitted a GiPro with ATRE...Luckily someone on here spotted this and quickly messaged me. The mod on it's own is fine, but with the GiPro fitted it would have advanced the timing wayyyyy too much!!!
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: gsxbarmy on Monday, 06 February 2017, 09:03 PM
Quote from: froudy on Monday, 06 February  2017, 08:54 PM
I did this mod...Easy enough to do following the instructions.

I then fitted a GiPro with ATRE...Luckily someone on here spotted this and quickly messaged me. The mod on it's own is fine, but with the GiPro fitted it would have advanced the timing wayyyyy too much!!!

A very valid point Steve, thank you. I have adjusted the top of this thread to add a warning saying exactly that, also updated the downloadable instructions  :onya:
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Andre on Sunday, 24 December 2017, 11:11 AM
Nice mod!
However, I have to disagree with your take on TRE in conjunction with this mod. Suzuki has restricted the timing in the lower gears by (edit: up to 3° - varies depending on TP) in the lower to mid rpms and only up to half-throttle. If you open up the throttle above half you get the normal timing (as in all other gears). They did this to reduce emissions. Maybe also to reduce snappiness at low acceleration. If you go 50 to 100% throttle you will have no restriction at all in the lower gears. They did not restrict the timing because of need to protect the engine!

If you eliminate timing restriction by using a TRE and advance the ignition timing in a reasonable degree you will not damage the engine as now you have the same advancement in all gears and rpms.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: roadstero on Monday, 27 May 2019, 08:30 AM
Hi. I just made this modification in my 14 and not only has it been noticed in softness, but it has also gained in push in lows.
I think I have exceeded the progress and should have more of those 4 º that are discussed here; the fact is that the motorcycle does not suffer detonation, in the absence of testing it with much more heat, in which case it would delay it.

There I send you some photos in which it is appreciated that there is something more advance, without knowing how to quantify exactly how much.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: seth on Monday, 27 May 2019, 08:37 AM
I think from memory that 1mm =1°
I wouldn't want to go more than 4°but it's your bike and i'll interested to see how it goes long term .
:onya:
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Andre on Monday, 27 May 2019, 04:45 PM
The pickup plate is a circle (with cutouts) and has a diameter of 100 mm. That gives a circumference of 314.159 mm. Divide that by 360 and you get 0.8727 mm for a degree.

0.8727 mm = 1°
3.4908 mm = 4°
1.7454 mm = 2°

4 mm advance would be 4.5835 °

Round the numbers as you please :)

I believe it was T24 who said that he got best results on standard bike with a 2° advance.

With a 4° advance I noticed an oil temperature increase of 5° C at the screw-in gauge and an increased difference between that and and the thermo-switch for the fan. No idea what the temps in the head are but safe to say it is "much" more. IMO the engine can take it (with 98 octane) but since I like longevity I put it back to original.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: seth on Monday, 27 May 2019, 05:43 PM
Thanks for clearing that up buddy @Andre
:onya:
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: roadstero on Wednesday, 29 May 2019, 07:30 AM
I will be more than aware of the possible signs of detonation, especially now that summer arrives, although in those circumstances, it is true that the heat given off by the engine does not invite much to take the bike.
Thank you for your answers.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Hooli on Wednesday, 29 May 2019, 07:57 AM
Don't forget with all this boys & girls that if you run higher octane fuel then you need more advance to run properly. The reason being the higher the octane the slower the fuel burn. Hence most engines these days have knock sensors to retard the ignition as required, it's so they can use the extra power of high octane but not risk damage on cheaper fuels.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: KiwiCol on Wednesday, 29 May 2019, 08:11 AM
I didn't know that!  Fancy higher octane fuels having a slower burn rate.

Now here's a question, if you have the engine advance mod - say 4 degrees (give or take), should you now run 95 octane? to get the better performance?
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Hooli on Wednesday, 29 May 2019, 08:04 PM
I don't know if you'd notice tbh, I've never tried. Someone with the mod should try it.

The higher octane gives a slower burn, hence it's more knock resistant. Meaning you can run more advance & get a better pressure wave on the cylinder without risking pre-ignition. I believe it also makes the burn more stable so is less affected by piston crown temp etc, but I'm not sure on that.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: grog on Wednesday, 29 May 2019, 08:16 PM
Healtech GIPRO on mine, 91, 95, 98, totally no difference. Performance or ks/litre. Certainly runs better in lower gears with it fitted, smoother etc. Fitted same to mates Rocket 3, amazing results lower down, even stopped it popping back thru exhaust. Whatever works i reckon. $200 well spent.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Andre on Thursday, 30 May 2019, 05:34 AM
Quote from: Hooli on Wednesday, 29 May  2019, 08:04 PM
The higher octane gives a slower burn, .....

That's a myth all over the Internet. There are many things that affect the burn rate but octane rating isn't one of them.

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-country/en_au/media/fuel-news/modern-petrol-vintage-engines.pdf (https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-country/en_au/media/fuel-news/modern-petrol-vintage-engines.pdf)

QuoteMost users perceive octane as the most important property of petrol
but in reality the boiling range or vapour forming properties have the major influence on fuel performance. High octane petrol has no influence on combustion quality or burn rates in these engines. It is the effective ratio of air to vaporized fuel in the combustion chamber that matters.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: KiwiCol on Thursday, 30 May 2019, 08:11 AM
Thanks for clearing that up Andre.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Eric GSX1400K3 on Sunday, 25 July 2021, 12:31 PM
Right, so I did this mod following the sage advice on here. I did mark and measure both standard, 2deg and 4 deg advance on the backing plate and then filed the holes in the mounting plate.

Put it all back together, started first go (so at least I did that part right).

Will go for a ride later today, idle seems a lot smoother.....
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Eric GSX1400K3 on Sunday, 25 July 2021, 01:19 PM
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Sunday, 25 July  2021, 12:31 PM
Right, so I did this mod following the sage advice on here. I did mark and measure both standard, 2deg and 4 deg advance on the backing plate and then filed the holes in the mounting plate.

Put it all back together, started first go (so at least I did that part right).

Will go for a ride later today, idle seems a lot smoother.....
Oops, forgot to add photos
...

So S = standard, 2 = 2 degrees advance at 1.74mm from stanard and 4 = 4 degrees advance at 3.49mm from standard. I used a cold chisel to mark the lines, as the pin punch and sharpie marks were not good enough. I tried to measure from the centre point of the backing plate. 
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Eric GSX1400K3 on Sunday, 15 August 2021, 07:55 PM
Finally found a hour or 2 spare time and took the 14 out for a long awaited run. Been pretty wet here on the west coast.  Battery fully charged  full tank of fuel a day clear blue skies.

First stop fuel station to check tyre pressures, front was 31psi, rear 33psi.  Set them to 38 front and 40 rear, felt much better.   Accelerating down the onramp and into traffic  the bike felt strong in all gears, no hesitation or hiccups.  Ran on the fwy for a bit then turned off and did a 1 hour loop of secondary roads, the ast bit along the ocean then home.

Happy with the mod, bike feels stronger in lower gears, I've set to 2deg advanced, plus I have a plug in TRE which I haven't removed.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: gsxbarmy on Monday, 16 August 2021, 07:36 AM
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Sunday, 15 August  2021, 07:55 PM
Finally found a hour or 2 spare time and took the 14 out for a long awaited run. Been pretty wet here on the west coast.  Battery fully charged  full tank of fuel a day clear blue skies.

First stop fuel station to check tyre pressures, front was 31psi, rear 33psi.  Set them to 38 front and 40 rear, felt much better.   Accelerating down the onramp and into traffic  the bike felt strong in all gears, no hesitation or hiccups.  Ran on the fwy for a bit then turned off and did a 1 hour loop of secondary roads, the ast bit along the ocean then home.

Happy with the mod, bike feels stronger in lower gears, I've set to 2deg advanced, plus I have a plug in TRE which I haven't removed.

@Eric GSX1400K3 DO NOT run a TRE and the advancer together - the TRE will already give 4 degrees and with the 2 degree from the mod you've made, 6 degree total is way too much. Suggest removing the TRE immediately!!!!
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Eric GSX1400K3 on Monday, 16 August 2021, 09:01 AM
Righto, will do. Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Eric GSX1400K3 on Monday, 16 August 2021, 11:45 AM
Quote from: gsxbarmy on Monday, 16 August  2021, 07:36 AM
Quote from: Eric GSX1400K3 on Sunday, 15 August  2021, 07:55 PM
Finally found a hour or 2 spare time and took the 14 out for a long awaited run. Been pretty wet here on the west coast.  Battery fully charged  full tank of fuel a day clear blue skies.

First stop fuel station to check tyre pressures, front was 31psi, rear 33psi.  Set them to 38 front and 40 rear, felt much better.   Accelerating down the onramp and into traffic  the bike felt strong in all gears, no hesitation or hiccups.  Ran on the fwy for a bit then turned off and did a 1 hour loop of secondary roads, the ast bit along the ocean then home.

Happy with the mod, bike feels stronger in lower gears, I've set to 2deg advanced, plus I have a plug in TRE which I haven't removed.

@Eric GSX1400K3 DO NOT run a TRE and the advancer together - the TRE will already give 4 degrees and with the 2 degree from the mod you've made, 6 degree total is way too much. Suggest removing the TRE immediately!!!!

OK so inadvertently did the mod and left my TRE plugged in, as I thought the TRE  only worked in the first 3 gears.  Thanks to @gsxbarmy for the heads up.
No damage to the bike. I unplugged my TRE this morning and rode to work.  So with timing advanced by 2deg and no TRE vs. TRE and 2deg advance or TRE only, I can say that the TRE only gives a smoother ride, so this leads me to say that if no TRE fitted, advance the timing by 4 deg would give you the best result. 

Tonight i will set the backing plate back to 0 and plug my TRE back in and leave it there.

Thanks all.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: gsxbarmy on Monday, 16 August 2021, 03:53 PM
@Eric GSX1400K3 a TRE will work across the first 4 gears; the backplate mod works across all gears.

If you remove the TRE and mod the backplate for 4 degrees advance, that will work the same as a TRE but across all gears..
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: grog on Monday, 16 August 2021, 05:49 PM
Correct. Exactly why i got Heal Tech, no more advance needed 5&6.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: robert on Wednesday, 29 September 2021, 05:08 PM
Is there anyone who tested this shit on the dyno and how much? Would be nice to have it on paper instead of gut feelings.

I know that in the past some people said that with or without TRE there's no difference on the dyno.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: Hooli on Wednesday, 29 September 2021, 05:40 PM
From memory of people dynoing them, there's hardly any more power. It's just a quicker throttle response.
Title: Re: Ignition Advancer Modification
Post by: GSXKING on Wednesday, 29 September 2021, 05:41 PM
If you could actually increase horsepower this way and realise it, you'd be a bloody MotoGP rider  :happy1: :happy1: :happy1: